Roof rack lights

[Grocery getter]

I just purchased a GOBI stealth roof rack. Does anyone know the best light system for it?

 

[Nacho]

The PIAA 2100 series and Hella ff75 will fit.

You could also do LEDs.

Shoot Timgco a PM he can help you out.

 

[Gunner_45]

I have the PIAA lights for mine.

If I am not mistaken, there is also a model of small rectangular KC's that will fit as well.

 

[is350]

the best ? probably some rigid lights or baja designs

 

[alrock]

The easy answer is those PIAA 2100s. The brightest answer is Rigid LED lighting. Depends on the look you want as well as your budget.

 

[Nacho]

I have the PIAA lights for mine.

If I am not mistaken, there is also a model of small rectangular KC's that will fit as well.

The KC 2"x6" are too big for the stealth openings.

 

[Gunner_45]

Maybe a Hella model is what I am thinking of.

When I made that statement, I was thinking of Trekker.

Seems like he was running something other than PIAA on his stealth.

Perhaps he will pipe in.

 

[Portager]

Assuming "best" equates to highest light output, highest reliability and low power draw, then the answer is definately a Rigid Industries E Serier 40" light bar. Timgco was selling a use one recently. Maybe he still has it?

 

[Humvee21]

Assuming "best" equates to highest light output, highest reliability and low power draw, then the answer is definately a Rigid Industries E Serier 40" light bar. Timgco was selling a use one recently. Maybe he still has it?

I do believe that baja designs has better lighting options than rigid. By better I mean more light output, better reliability, but more power draw to accomodate for the increased light output.

 

[seventwozero]

I do believe that baja designs has better lighting options than rigid. By better I mean more light output, better reliability, but more power draw to accomodate for the increased light output.

Baja Designs/Rigid Industries/Vision X

You really start splitting hairs when you compare their higher end bars (ie: minimal lumen output differences). From reading on the internet, people that own any of those brands all seem to have something good or something bad to say about them.

Portager had a really nice table laid out in another thread that was splitting those hairs :giggle: From what I recall... it was concluded that the RI bars dispersed the heat generated by the LED's better than other brands, which (in theory) correlates to an extended product life.

 

[08H3]

If "cheap" plays any part in your definition of "best", these are an option. $20 in the clearance bin at Wal-Mart.

 

[HUMMER INVESTMENTS]

Depending on your definition, Rigid LED's would be the best (ie. highest output, top of the line brands, fitting correctly to the rack)

Timgco probably has the best knowledge on the lights, and is a sponsor selling them.

 

[08SolarFlareH3]

There are also a few people running the Delta 45H. They are available in both Xenon and HID. Avaliable in driving, fog, and back up (diffused) light patterns.

 

[Portager]

Baja Designs/Rigid Industries/Vision X

You really start splitting hairs when you compare their higher end bars (ie: minimal lumen output differences). From reading on the internet, people that own any of those brands all seem to have something good or something bad to say about them.

Portager had a really nice table laid out in another thread that was splitting those hairs :giggle: From what I recall... it was concluded that the RI bars dispersed the heat generated by the LED's better than other brands, which (in theory) correlates to an extended product life.

Pretty good recall.

Here is a :link: to the thread your referring to. I compared the RI E-series 20" light bar, the Baja Designs 20" Stealth light bar and the RI SR-20 20" light bar. The RI E-series cost 21% more than Baja designs but RI has 13% higher light output (raw lumens) and uses about the same power (85 Watts vs 84 Watts there are the split hairs). On the other hand the RI SR-20 cost 8.4% less than Baja Design, has 8.6% lower light output and used 16% less power. It appears to me that RI beats Baja Designs on light output, reliability, durability and cost (but not all with the same light model). :cheers:

 

[is350]

it also depends on how grocery getter wants to mount the lights, if he wants it inside the bars then hell have to go with the sr series lights or bd stealth , but if he want to mount then in front of the bars then the options are almost limitless.

 

[seventwozero]

Pretty good recall.

Here is a :link: to the thread your referring to. I compared the RI E-series 20" light bar, the Baja Designs 20" Stealth light bar and the RI SR-20 20" light bar. The RI E-series cost 21% more than Baja designs but RI has 13% higher light output (raw lumens) and uses about the same power (85 Watts vs 84 Watts there are the split hairs). On the other hand the RI SR-20 cost 8.4% less than Baja Design, has 8.6% lower light output and used 16% less power. It appears to me that RI beats Baja Designs on light output, reliability, durability and cost (but not all with the same light model). :cheers:

The BD equivalent light to the RI Dually D2, The Squadron, outputs 3600 lumens from 4 leds @ 42 watts. The RI Dually D2 outputs 2600 lumens, from 6 leds @ 28 watts. I would really be interested in seeing a comparison from the two lights. 1000 lumens is quite a bit of light.

EDIT: It's worth pointing out that to get that extra 1000 lumens over the RI light, you'll be paying nearly double for the BD light. $380 for a pair of RI dually d2's, $660 for a pair of BD Squadron's.

 

[TAPDH3T]

These were just under $60 a piece with 3 year warranty...

Before

After

 

[alrock]

it also depends on how grocery getter wants to mount the lights, if he wants it inside the bars then hell have to go with the sr series lights or bd stealth , but if he want to mount then in front of the bars then the options are almost limitless.

You can mount the E series and the Duallys behind the Stealth bars but not without some modification to the mounting. The lenses on each light are smaller than the Stealth opening so they will shine through the bars.

For example, JR3T's custom rack - I think they only modified the mount, not the opening. I hope to work with Crawler soon to modify my Stealth to position my E Series and D2s behind the Stealth bars.

 

[is350]

You can mount the E series and the Duallys behind the Stealth bars but not without some modification to the mounting. The lenses on each light are smaller than the Stealth opening so they will shine through the bars.

For example, JR3T's custom rack - I think they only modified the mount, not the opening. I hope to work with Crawler soon to modify my Stealth to position my E Series and D2s behind the Stealth bars.

i think it was just putting 2 taps on the two corners and taking out the 2 bars in the center

 

[kflips]

[/IMG]

How PIAA 2100's fit

 

[Baja_Designs]

The BD equivalent light to the RI Dually D2, The Squadron, outputs 3600 lumens from 4 leds @ 42 watts. The RI Dually D2 outputs 2600 lumens, from 6 leds @ 28 watts. I would really be interested in seeing a comparison from the two lights. 1000 lumens is quite a bit of light.

EDIT: It's worth pointing out that to get that extra 1000 lumens over the RI light, you'll be paying nearly double for the BD light. $380 for a pair of RI dually d2's, $660 for a pair of BD Squadron's.

Hey Guys,

Please allow me to introduce myself, my name is Trent Kirby and I am the Project/Marketing Manager at Baja Designs. I don’t have a Hummer, but am an avid off road and motorcycle enthusiast. I have been watching the threads on here comparing our lights to the Rigid Industries lights. The last thing that I want to do is start a battle or bash another companies lights, but I thought I would chime in on this discussion.

Rigid Industries makes a great light, but a simple raw lumens comparison isn’t enough to determine which light is better. Baja Designs has written quite a few white paper articles that have been published regarding LED efficiency, heat sinks, binning, etc…. If anyone is interested in these articles we would be more than happy to post them on this forum. These articles are not just for Baja Designs and Rigid Industries lights, but articles that will properly educate consumers on LED technology and allow consumers to read pass the clever marketing spin on LED lights.

If anyone has any questions on our lights please feel free to ask. We are the only lighting company on the market that will tell you what specific LED we use including the bin selection on all of our lights. We are also working on a couple of short videos showing that not only are our lights assembled in the United States, but we also manufacture them here as well. Everything from housing design, optic design and circuit board programming.

Best Regards,

Trent Kirby
185 Bosstick Blvd.
San Marcos, CA 92069
(760)560-2252 x108 Phone
(760)560-0383 Fax
www.bajadesigns.com

 

[Portager]

The BD equivalent light to the RI Dually D2, The Squadron, outputs 3600 lumens from 4 leds @ 42 watts. The RI Dually D2 outputs 2600 lumens, from 6 leds @ 28 watts. I would really be interested in seeing a comparison from the two lights. 1000 lumens is quite a bit of light.

EDIT: It's worth pointing out that to get that extra 1000 lumens over the RI light, you'll be paying nearly double for the BD light. $380 for a pair of RI dually d2's, $660 for a pair of BD Squadron's.

OK, seventwozero; I'll do a comparison of the Baja Designs Squadron 3X3 (as in 3" x 3" not 3 LEDs x 3 LEDs). The Squadron is based on the new Cree XLamp XM-L LED :link: and the datasheet is at :link:. It is new high output LED. The Squadron would appear to be a close match to the RI Dually D2, however the D2 is actually considerable older light with lower efficiency (i.e. 72.2 raw lumens/Watt), the better comparison would be to the SR-6" and the SR-10” with the "Specter" reflectors. The SR-6 & SR-10 achieve 95 lumens/Watt compared to the Squadron's 85 Lumens/Watt. The other factor that I like to consider is raw Lumens divided by the cost or Lumens/$. The Squadron is 10.9 Lumens/$ compared to the Dually D2 at 13 Lumens/$. The SR-6 is 10.9 Lumens/$ and the SR-10 is 13.4 Lumens/$.

________________Baja Designs __________Rigid Industries________ Rigid Industries _____Rigid Industries
________________Squadron 3X3__________Dually D2______________SR-6" Spectra_______SR-10 Spectra
Length (width in)_____3___________________3.187__________________8.87______________12.87
Height (in)__________3___________________2.94___________________1.62_______________1.62
Depth (in)__________?___________________3______________________3__________________3
Number of LED's_____4___________________6______________________9__________________15
Power (Watts)_______42__________________36____________________32__________________53
Raw Lumens ________3600________________2600__________________3060________________5200
Efficiency (Lu/W)_____85.7________________72.2___________________95.6________________96.2
Cost (MSRP $)_______329.95______________199.99_________________279.99______________379.99
Lumens/$___________10.9________________13.0___________________10.9________________13.4

To compare the Dually D2 to the Squadron you should really compare three D2 to two Squadrons. The raw light output of three D2's is 7800 Lumens compared to two Squadrons at 7200, so three D2's are only 600 Lumens higher or 8.3%. The cost of three D2's (if you buy a pair at $379.99 and one at 199.99) is $579.8 versus 659.90 for two Squadron’s so three D2's are $79.92 or 12% less than two Squadron's.

The SR-6" Specter is 15% lower output than the Squadron and 15% lower cost, but the SR-10” Specter is 42% higher output and 15% higher cost.

Hey Guys,

... Rigid Industries makes a great light, but a simple raw lumens comparison isn’t enough to determine which light is better. Baja Designs has written quite a few white paper articles that have been published regarding LED efficiency, heat sinks, binning, etc…. If anyone is interested in these articles we would be more than happy to post them on this forum. These articles are not just for Baja Designs and Rigid Industries lights, but articles that will properly educate consumers on LED technology and allow consumers to read pass the clever marketing spin on LED lights.

If anyone has any questions on our lights please feel free to ask. We are the only lighting company on the market that will tell you what specific LED we use including the bin selection on all of our lights. We are also working on a couple of short videos showing that not only are our lights assembled in the United States, but we also manufacture them here as well. Everything from housing design, optic design and circuit board programming.

Best Regards,

Trent Kirby
185 Bosstick Blvd.
San Marcos, CA 92069
(760)560-2252 x108 Phone
(760)560-0383 Fax
www.bajadesigns.com

Trent;

Welcome to the forum. I couldn't agree more! I would be very interested in seeing the white papers you mentioned. I agree, using the raw lumen output rating from the LED manufacturer is not a good way to compare lights. Using raw Lumens assumes that all reflectors have the same efficiency (they don't) and that the windows (polycarbonate lens) have the same optical transmission (they probably don't). It also assumes that each light has the same beam divergence (they certainly don't). However, when manufactures don't provide sufficient information to make a good comparison we have to take what you can get, which is usually raw lumens. My preference would be to compare actual measured output from the light using ANSI/NEMA FL-1 testing standards.

Since you said that if anyone has any questions on your lights to feel free to ask...

What is your reflector efficiency and what is the beam divergence angle (full width half max would be best) for your driving and spot patterns? Do you have two separate reflector designs or do you use a diffuser to spread the spot for driving?

What is the optical transmission of your windows (polycarbonate lens)?

Do your windows have an anti reflective coatings on both inner and outer surfaces?

What is the ambient operating temperature range for full brightness?

Can you elaborate on the active thermal management? I assume you're using the pulse width modulation like everybody else, which means in very hot conditions you're effectively dimming the light to avoid overheating.

What is Baja Design’s definition of limited warranty?

Do you Amber lights use LED's with amber output or do you add an Amber filter to block the blue portion of the spectrum? What is the light output of your Amber LED lights?

Thanks in advance for any information you can provide and sorry for asking so many questions.

Regards;
Portager

 

[alrock]

Trent, nice intro post. I'm stoked to see a vendor come in as straightforward as you have and not in a defensive or attacking approach. This could be a great discussion.

 

[3Hummers]

Trent, welcome to H4O. Looks like an informative and interesting thread is starting. Mike already asked all my questions so looking forward to watching this thread develop.

 

[Baja_Designs]

I have attached one white paper article and combined six separate articles into one word document our CEO has written so far. Instead of attaching the word doc I have listed it below.

Portager: I have printed your response and will being working on your questions today. Have you seen a Squadron in action yet? If not no worries I would love to send you one for an honest review.

LED White Paper

6 things you need to know before you buy an LED light for off-road

1. The Process of “Binning”
There are two primary performance characteristics of LED light bulbs that manufacturers use to categorize and price their LEDs - Luminous Output (brightness) and color temperature.
All LED light bulb manufacturers sort their bulbs for luminous output and color temperature after mass-production using a practice called “binning.” Binning is complicated but in general terms, bulbs measured with the highest luminous output and the most desirable color temperature are put in the highest rated “bin.” Each subsequent bin has lower performance ratings and/or less desirable color, until they get to the last bin with the lowest performance ratings.
Most important, the cost differential and LED quality from the highest rated bin to the lowest rated bin is significant. For example, the lowest Cree XPG model LED output bin has 20% fewer lumens per watt than the highest rated bin. To save money, many manufacturers of off-road lighting systems select from the cheaper, inferior LED “bins”, which produce vastly inferior results when compared to the same model LEDs from higher rated bins. Of course, their marketing departments still claim the maximum theoretical lumens instead of what they are actually using.
Be sure to spend your money wisely and buy from reputable manufacturers that only use bulbs from the highest rated bins.
Baja Designs only accepts bulbs from bins containing the highest output bulbs and optimal color temperature for off-road.

2. Die Size and Lumens/Watt
Now that you understand the differences available in the same LEDs, let’s compare different LED models. The technology for white LEDs is evolving quickly. Recent developments in highly efficient phosphor coatings are allowing manufacturers to create white LEDs with smaller die sizes and higher lumens per watt - in other words, smaller, brighter lights.
One way to compare different model LEDs is to calculate the Lumens/Watt. The standard unit for measuring LED light output is the "lumen," which is essentially the total luminous power emitted from the light source. If you divide the total lumen output of a light by the power draw of the light you will get the lumens/watt. A high lumens/watt number means that you will get a brighter light for the power draw. For example, the older 10 watt Cree MCE and Seoul Semiconductor P7 LEDs are rated at 75 lumens/watt. Contrast that with the 5-watt Cree XPG LEDs that produce greater than 100 lumens/watt or the latest generation 5 watt Cree XML that produces 140 lumens per watt and you can see why newer LED lights are brighter and more efficient. This is of particular importance if your vehicle has limited electrical output.
Of equal importance, all LED models have a die size or footprint. The smaller the LED die (or “bulb”) the easier it is to create the reflector and optics that put the light where it is needed the most. For example, the older 10 watt Cree MCE and Seoul Semiconductor P7 LED dies are very large which makes it virtually impossible to focus the light without wasting a significant portion of the light. The result is a dimmer and less efficient light for the power draw. On the other hand, the 5-watt Cree XPG die is 85% smaller which allows for almost completely efficient use of the available light. It also allows the reflector to be ½ the size resulting in a much smaller overall lamp size.
Baja Designs is always researching emerging light technologies and maintains close relationships with LED manufacturers. Baja Designs is often one of the first companies to get new LED prototypes to test and has been at the leading edge of off-road lighting since 1992.

3. Color Temperature Matters
Color temperature is a generally accepted means of describing the color of white light and is measured on the Kelvin (K) scale. Temperatures below 3500ºK produce “warmer” or yellow-tinged light. Temperatures above 6000ºK produce “cooler” or bluish tint light. Color temperatures above 6000 ºK make it difficult for the human eye to perceive color variations and depth of field. For the off-road enthusiast, this can present a dangerous situation as the driver strains to see changes in the terrain, oncoming dips, shadows and other road or trail hazards.
Baja Designs uses LED's in the 5000-6000ºK range. This color temperature range closely mimics bright sunlight and greatly reduces eye strain and driver fatigue. These LED's provide the off-road driver with a far superior lighted pathway to easily spot oncoming obstacles at relatively high speeds.

4. Heat Can Damage an LED
LED bulbs that produce white light generate a lot of heat that needs to be conducted away from the LED. Proper thermal management is key to maintaining the original brightness and lifespan of your LED light. Unfortunately, due to component costs, many manufacturers do not include appropriate heat transferring materials, thereby trading-off between cost and performance.
For example, most LED lighting manufacturers use less expensive FR4 circuit boards that do not transfer heat well. Baja Designs achieves superior heat dissipation using two methods. First, they use a more expensive metal core circuit board to efficiently transfer heat away from the LED to the heat sink provided by the air-cooled aluminum housing. In addition, where necessary, Baja Designs also employs an embedded microprocessor to carefully monitor the LED temperature. If the light begins to overheat, which mainly occurs if the vehicle is stationary for an extended time, the microprocessor will automatically dim the light to prevent overheating.

5. Optics – Light Output vs. Light Distribution
The brightest light is worthless if it is not where the driver needs it. Most LED light systems use optics from third party companies. The vast majority of these optics produce round shapes (similar to a flashlight) - small round for a tight spot pattern, and large round for a driving pattern. All “spot” patterns are round to achieve maximum distance and much of the large circle light is wasted at the top and bottom because it is not useable by the driver. Driving lights should be wider and more oval in shape (or rectangular or wing-shaped) to take maximum advantage of the available light provided. Cornering/fog lights need to be even wider and more oval/rectangular than a driving pattern. Quality optics efficiently use the LED light output to put the light right where you need it. Good optics can make an LED appear brighter even when compared to another light with the same LED bulb.
In addition, different terrains (including desert, forest, rock crawling, sand dunes, etc.) require different light patterns. If you drive in multiple terrains, you will want to change your light pattern based on the terrain. Some changes can be effected by proper aiming but the majority of pattern change comes from changing the optics.
Baja Designs provide optics designed by an engineer with over 30 years of real world off-road experience, and the optics put the light right where you need it. Each optic in a Baja Designs LED light is user changeable to create a spot, driving, or cornering light. This means you can modify your light depending on the terrain instead of buying multiple lights.

6. Private Labeling
Many companies buy off-the-shelf lights designed and manufactured in Korea or China and have them labeled with their brand. There are many companies selling identical lights all manufactured by the same company but each company puts their own name on the lights and markets them as their own. These are cheap imitations and do not come close to achieving the optical patterns and lighting output provided by the Baja Designs’ LED lighting systems. Be sure to question the origins of the LED lights you are looking at.
In Summary
A quality lighting system provides increased safety and reduces fatigue caused by eye strain and night-sight stress. As LED technology progresses it will be important for the consumer to carefully select products from the various lighting manufacturers to ensure the lighting they need for performance and safety is, in fact, the lighting they are receiving (not some unverifiable claim). At Baja Designs, we will continue to develop the highest quality LED lighting systems and optics for all your racing and night riding needs.
For more technical information, read the article titled: How Do White LEDs Work? By Mike Wood. The article can be found at the following URL: http://www.mikewoodconsulting.com/articles/Protocol Winter 2011 - White LEDs.pdf

For more information regarding Baja Designs LED lighting systems, and our other lighting products and accessories, visit our website at: www.bajadesigns.com.