Lower Metal Stop

[amrg]

Id like to ask those people with the bilstein shocks, do they have any issues with the control arm hitting the lower metal stop on full extension of the shocks, due to the added travel? Im specifically interested in the Alphas, on the 06 the control arm kept hitting the metal stop whenever I drop off a kerb or more noticably when going offroad (over here its either fast desert driving or dunes, either way its going fast) and the whole time its clunk clunk clunk whenever the tires drop. I went into limit straps to solve them but never got the time to actually instal and test that setup on it. Now on the Alpha Im wondering if this would happen once I level and change the shocks.

 

[alrock]

Same suspension on Alphas vs. non-Alphas, except that the Alphas have stiffer torsion bars. Yes, I have Bilsteins and my upper control arms are hitting the stops. There are a couple of threads going right now about upper control arms and this issue that might be good reading for you. Limit straps are probably the way to go.

 

[amrg]

My aim is to find away to avoid using limit straps, while still benefit from the bilstein shocks! Ive been on two offroading trips recently using 2 different setups, and the bilsteins handle themselves really great on the fast driving on sand over the stock shoock, that i kept hearing being fully extended all the time. Did anyone install some sort of bump stop on the lower piece of metal?

 

[amrg]

Would this be a good idea for the LCA? There is a small hole drilled in the metal stop, perhaps this can be put over there.

http://www.energysuspensionparts.com/proddetail.asp?prod=9.9121

 

[backcountryislife]

Funny, I just mentioned this in the other bumpstop thread, I loved my 5100's, but IMO having enough travel to hit metal on metal for a bumpstop is just silly. When I sold mine I was about to find a way to use some high duro rubber strips I've got to dampen the hit.

I like the bumper idea, but I feel you'd use up more travel than the shorter shock did.

It makes no sense to me at all why the shock is longer for "lifted" leveled H3's... the travel doesn't change at all.

 

[amrg]

Ive actually found several lengths for those bump stops, the shortest was 3/8 inches tall, 2 inches in diameter

http://www.energysuspensionparts.com/proddetail.asp?prod=9.9132#

I dont wana lose any useful travel, but at the same time that metal on metal sound drives me crazy. Its ridiculous that the second I hit high speed on very uneven terrain (such as the sand dunes) its metal on metal the whole time. At some points I end up slowing down and easing on the truck although I already Know what is happening. Its just not a nice noise to be hearing.

 

[tomp]

The ball joints will still fail prematurely if those pads are installed atop the metal stops. Cognito UCAs on the H2s have those stops and still have this problem - even uniball joints fail early. Hunner is a good resource for adding droop with factory length shocks (upper nut mod) and also good resource for limit straps on the 3. I like the limit straps because you can get adjustable ones and tweak the droop exactly where you want it. They also provide a second level of protection, in case you break a shock or lose a shock bolt.

 

[amrg]

Im actually experiencing some sort of ball joint failure at the moment (lower ball joint I believe). I have 65K miles on the truck, 15K after it was leveled with Bilsteins, not sure if this led to it failing or its just was its time. I did notice the boot ripped on one of em, but the second is also failing and the boot is just fine.
As for the limit straps, only a few people are running them? and I spoke to Hunner before and I believe he said he only did that on the I5, before getting the Alpha. He didnt have any complains on that, maybe not?
Wouldnt a bump stop do what the limit strap does?

 

[backcountryislife]

Im actually experiencing some sort of ball joint failure at the moment (lower ball joint I believe). I have 65K miles on the truck, 15K after it was leveled with Bilsteins, not sure if this led to it failing or its just was its time. I did notice the boot ripped on one of em, but the second is also failing and the boot is just fine.
As for the limit straps, only a few people are running them? and I spoke to Hunner before and I believe he said he only did that on the I5, before getting the Alpha. He didnt have any complains on that, maybe not?
Wouldnt a bump stop do what the limit strap does?

Well, some of it is how the force is applied... Maybe I'm looking at this wrong, but I'd think the force coming from above wouldn't create the leverage on the joint that a bumpstop or my idea (rubber strip between metal... essentially the same thing) would... The more I think about that maybe that's not sound logic, but I'd think you could attach the strap further out, where the bumpstop I'm assuming would need to be right near the joint to have something to "stop" on

holy crap, that shot is bigger than I thought,

So, looking at that, I just don't see where we can put a stop that would be effective & not have huge leverage on the bushings like the current stop did.
(one of the other reasons I sold mine... the bushings were all somewhat shot, and I didn't want to deal with that... I feel my swap to the 5100's exacerbated the problem significantly, it wasn't till later that I understood why hunner had used limiters on his)
[h=3][/h] )

 

[tomp]

Just use the shock bolts to mount the limit straps. Both upper and lower mounting locations are designed to handle the downward force, just as they did with OEM shocks. Best option is to drill a hole in the upper shock shroud for the top of the limit strap and mount the bottom of the strap on the bottom shock bolt. Cognito has a kit that is adjustable. All you need to do is tell them total length you need.

 

[tomp]

Lower joint failure is not likely a result of using longer shocks, but it's hard to say for sure.

 

[backcountryislife]

Lower joint failure is not likely a result of using longer shocks, but it's hard to say for sure.

Perhaps not "failure"... but it would be hard to say that metal hitting metal & coming to a sudden stop with a lot of leverage is anything less than bad for the whole assembly.

Also, keep in mind I was disconnected, so my setup saw more travel than a connected setup as each side was working on it's own rock at any given time, so my setup IMO was MORE at risk/ taking abuse from this issue than a connected setup that doesn't move nearly as much.

 

[Hunner]

I can comment on the strap for posterity if anyone is thinking about that. I think the thread is gone and I may have left out some details.
Some things to think about. YOU have to decide on YOUR H3 how long to make them.
I found out ready made ones are usually thin and come in fixed lengths, none of which fit my application.
I tried 1/2 inch shorter than the distance but maybe should have gone with 3/4 or an inch. I cannot really say how long to make yours.
Good ones with multiple layers do stretch even though it is not much all that weight will cause some.
I got focused on lining the strap up parallel with the shock to avoid any angles or rub against the shock housing.
By mounting one end on the shock and one on the lower shock mount, I needed one bracket reversed.
OK Offroad in OKCity made me some heavy duty ones and reversed one bracket.
(they specialize in Rovers and new my connection with a shop here that services them and sent me this sticker to raze the guys there.)

The offset brackets allow for them to clear at the top and stand off the shock at the bottom.

Black generic one was too long and bracket did not work.

On another note: I looked into these Timbren bumps to replace the OEM but then things went another way with the black ones.

 

[amrg]

So, looking at that, I just don't see where we can put a stop that would be effective & not have huge leverage on the bushings like the current stop did.
(one of the other reasons I sold mine... the bushings were all somewhat shot, and I didn't want to deal with that... I feel my swap to the 5100's exacerbated the problem significantly, it wasn't till later that I understood why hunner had used limiters on his)
)

My bushings were shot even before leveling and adding the bilsteins. I was approx on 50K miles, and as I was checking for a quote for alignment here, before I installed anything, the tech told me my bushings were shot and they needed to be replaced in order for his job to be effective. I ended up replacing upper and lower control arm bushings on both sides, the upper were destroyed and the lower were pretty worn out.

Bear in mind the weather here gets really hot in the summer, over 50 degrees Celsius for 3 months of the Summer, and I blame this for wearing the bushings faster. Even engine mounts Id have to change approx every 18 months!

 

[amrg]

Well, some of it is how the force is applied... Maybe I'm looking at this wrong, but I'd think the force coming from above wouldn't create the leverage on the joint that a bumpstop or my idea (rubber strip between metal... essentially the same thing) would... The more I think about that maybe that's not sound logic, but I'd think you could attach the strap further out, where the bumpstop I'm assuming would need to be right near the joint to have something to "stop" on

)

I took a look earlier to see how everything would look like. It seems to me that the shocks go on the same plane as the metal stop. That is if you draw a line from the top shock mount to where it attaches at the LCA, you'll notice that the line passes through the metal stop when the shock is fully extended. So it seems to me that once a tire drops, the point where the strap is attached will act as a pivot and push up on the LCA bushings. The same will happen with bump stops, but the push will be on the UCA bushings instead. Because both pass through the same line, the leverage should be equal i believe, it might be abit different in favor of the straps, but when fully extended the strap wouldn't be sticking out that much further.

 

[backcountryislife]

I'll agree about the leverage point, but there is a reason that we use rubber for a bumpstop in every application out there... noone would purposely use a metal on metal hit to stop suspension... it's just a horrid idea.

Whether it be a strap, with some give, or a rubber stop, or a shock, that'the the right length, doing the job it's supposed to do... anything is better than relying on metal on metal for a stop. I just don't understand why it is accepted.

 

[amrg]

Completely true. I saw other cars with IFS that had bump stops to control the drop. So y not in our case!
Im hopefully gona order the bump stops in the next couple of days. Once I get em I'll see how those do. Hopefully solve this issue.

 

[backcountryislife]

Completely true. I saw other cars with IFS that had bump stops to control the drop. So y not in our case!

well... the 3 is designed to have the shock as the stop, which makes sense, my JK is the same way, shock stops downward travel... but we put the other shocks on it and instead of them stopping just shy of full travel we hit the stop... poor design on the part of aftermarket.

Seems that the alpha shock is probably the better way to go.

 

[Hunner]

A couple of points as I see it. Putting anything on the metal stop will reduce the travel and contact will be even more likely.

The point I believe as originally set up was NOT to touch the metal stop. Which if you do not crank up the torsions is even less likely to occur.

The purpose of the longer shock in my case was to gain more travel (and as a result also a better ratio) but if you turn up the torsions and the fender to axle distance increases, doesn't that mean that distance has to be compensated by the shock to start with?? (as shown in pictures of the change in distance the shock has to go to reach the LCA)
I could feel the OEM shock topping out hard as it hit full travel and did not like the limit induced.

Also cranking up the torsions like more so to 24.25 if I get this right, will effectively start the shock travel distance down closer to max extension.

Also note that turning up the torsions to raise that distance will be greater out there at the axle end than the measurement in distance between the progressive spring to lower CA.

To touch on the anti-sway bar, longer links only raise the starting angle of the bar but do not preload it. Fixed length links don't do that. Ideally the ends should be about level to start with to allow equal travel based on what other components it might interfere with. In the case of the H3 with the bent or angled ends the only way to know where "normal" was is to check a stock H3. However I tried to explain my longer links and beginning angles of them will cause them to raise the angles of the links sooner. Adjustable length links will allow you to preload one side or the other like to compensate for driver weight as used in road course racing or amount or frequency of repeated left or right turns especially with off camber tracks.
I don't see that needed for an H3 I just used adjustable to get them to clear other components and to find the right length easily.

 

[backcountryislife]

A couple of points as I see it. Putting anything on the metal stop will reduce the travel and contact will be even more likely.

The point I believe as originally set up was NOT to touch the metal stop. Which if you do not crank up the torsions is even less likely to occur.

The purpose of the longer shock in my case was to gain more travel (and as a result also a better ratio) but if you turn up the torsions and the fender to axle distance increases, doesn't that mean that distance has to be compensated by the shock to start with?? (as shown in pictures of the change in distance the shock has to go to reach the LCA)
I could feel the OEM shock topping out hard as it hit full travel and did not like the limit induced.

Also cranking up the torsions like more so to 24.25 if I get this right, will effectively start the shock travel distance down closer to max extension.

Also note that turning up the torsions to raise that distance will be greater out there at the axle end than the measurement in distance between the progressive spring to lower CA.

To touch on the anti-sway bar, longer links only raise the starting angle of the bar but do not preload it. Fixed length links don't do that. Ideally the ends should be about level to start with to allow equal travel based on what other components it might interfere with. In the case of the H3 with the bent or angled ends the only way to know where "normal" was is to check a stock H3. However I tried to explain my longer links and beginning angles of them will cause them to raise the angles of the links sooner. Adjustable length links will allow you to preload one side or the other like to compensate for driver weight as used in road course racing or amount or frequency of repeated left or right turns especially with off camber tracks.
I don't see that needed for an H3 I just used adjustable to get them to clear other components and to find the right length easily.

The shock (the "ideal" shock) should have travel from top of travel to about 1/2" (or whatever keeps it from hitting) from bottom without allowing it to bottom. It doesn't matter where you set your T bar, travel is what it is, nothing else changes but static position. When you raise or lower the truck, you're not changing anything other than where the tire is in it's already pre-determined trave which can not change. I now understand why the shock didn't do the whole way, because they're stopping you from topping out... but it seems by the pic you posted of it disconnected, that it could have been a bit longer easily and still been safe, hence why aftermarket made a longer one... but we didn't gain much, just an inch at the top of travel, and the ability to top out on metal.

As to whether you'll hit it, T bar crank has no effect IF you're disconnected, and the only way that someone who's connected should ever hit it is if they get the whole front end in the air, or VERY close to it. In that case, yeah, T bar or starting position is a factor of course, start at almost zero "sag" and you'll top out easier.

This would explain why AMRG would see the same issue as me, despit very different uses... I use all my travel by disconnecting, he uses all his travel by unweighting the whole front of the truck because he's carrying speed through the desert.


On mine, I got shots of the truck with a wheel in the air, and the swaybar links were relatively straight (not completely) and not interfering with anything... but the preload of the swaybar kept the wheel in the air from dropping. being more vertical would have given the spring more leverage over the swaybar, but not enough to make a huge difference.

 

[amrg]

Im not looking for large bump stops that would reduce the travel I gained by the longer shocks, Im just looking for a way to effectively stop the metal on metal tap while still having that longer travel. If I install the bump stop using the hole I see drilled in the metal stop, The bump stop will be at an angle. The bump stop Im planning on using has roughly 11/16 total height, which translates to 0.69 inches. The Bump stop's shape and the way its mounted, plus how much it would compress when the UCA is resting on it, will tell me how much travel I lost in order to achieve this method. Its the same as limit straps, you get a certain length, factor in the stretching of the strap and leave a small "safety" distance so that if it over stretches it doesnt end up hitting.
If the bump stops seem to be limiting alot, I can replace them with even shorter ones, 3/8 inches long.

 

[backcountryislife]

If you're looking at a bump that's .69"... I'd think you're only going to be losing 1/2 of that compressed... I'd be pretty happy with that, and I really doubt you'll notice losing less than 1/2" of travel. I thought it would have lost more than that.

 

[amrg]

I just took pictures of my setup. As you can see in the first photo the UCA is resting on the metal stop. I took other pics of other suspension components to show how "Upset" they are at full travel.
You can also tell I need to replace my lower ball joints. Im not sure about the upper though, how do they look?

 

[alrock]

No pics of the lower ball joints; uppers look fine but the best test may be to elevate the front wheel of the ground and to see if there's movement when you try and rock it top to bottom.

 

[backcountryislife]

AMRG,


Check out the last page of this thread... This explains why you & I hit metal on Metal, but Hunner doesn't. Some minor modification to the lower rubber on the upper mount may take care of your issues.

http://www.hummer4x4offroad.com/forum/showthread.php?4385-Monroe-Reflex-monotube-shocks