Gun Carrying Legalities Question for you TX Cops

[bendyprissy]

Do any of the Texas law-enforcement personnel out there know if it is legal to carry your handgun while kayaking (lakes, rivers, etc) without a CHL?

 

[frumaker]

As long as it is concealed you are ok. a kayak would be considered your vehicle at the time.

 

[bendyprissy]

As long as it is concealed you are ok. a kayak would be considered your vehicle at the time.

I was hoping you would answer. I was told that but the person said I think. Are there any specifics I should know before hand?

 

[TAPDH3T]

Other than Texas is the greatest place in the world.. It's like Disney land for gun owners... NO lol

 

[3Hummers]

Concealed in a waterproof/watertight bag/box.

 

[ReconH3]

If I'm not mistaken, Texas doesn't allow open carry. For concealed carry you may need to get a permit. Taking a class is very well worth it because they really explain your rights, and all the legalities involving use of force.


"Ex Umbris Venimus"

 

[skeptic]

Other than Texas is the greatest place in the world.. It's like Disney land for gun owners... NO lol

Just for kicks.. UT is number one on this list, and almost extended the lead when constitutional carry was passed.. Too bad the gov vetoed it. Open carry, castle laws, constitutional protection allowing carry in places like public schools, constitutional protection against search and seizure including natural disasters (gun confiscation during Katrina comes to mind). I was quite surprised to see TX not even on the top 10 list. Of course this list is all about laws, not culture - TX is certainly a gun friendly place.


http://www.deseretnews.com/top/1429/0/10-states-with-the-most-lenient-gun-laws-.html

 

[frumaker]

there are no specifics other than it needs to be concealed. in texas, you are allowed to have a concealed handgun in your vehicle without a concealed handgun license. you are allowed to carry from your house to your vehicle and from your vehicle to your house without a concealed handgun license. as dave said, it would probably be good to have a waterproof box to keep it in while on the kayak. it is my belief that taking the concealed handgun course and getting the license is a waste of time and money unless you are wanting to carry quite often into stores and walking around. if you just want it in your vehicle or kayak while you are "driving" around, I wouldn't waste the time or money, which I know you are very busy in your profession so time is money. hope I have answered your questions. you have my number if you have more questions.

I was hoping you would answer. I was told that but the person said I think. Are there any specifics I should know before hand?

 

[f5moab]

Just for kicks.. UT is number one on this list, and almost extended the lead when constitutional carry was passed.. Too bad the gov vetoed it. Open carry, castle laws, constitutional protection allowing carry in places like public schools, constitutional protection against search and seizure including natural disasters (gun confiscation during Katrina comes to mind). I was quite surprised to see TX not even on the top 10 list. Of course this list is all about laws, not culture - TX is certainly a gun friendly place.


http://www.deseretnews.com/top/1429/0/10-states-with-the-most-lenient-gun-laws-.html

I read that and their one statement, "Among other things, Utah allows for open carry of unloaded firearms without a concealed firearm permit..." is a bit misleading and I guess it depends on a person's idea of "unloaded."
Utah allows for an open carry of a handgun, without a concealed permit, so long as the weapon is two actions away from firing. (Ex. semi-auto, you can carry with a full mag, but no round in the pipe, so first action is to rack the slide back and load a round, second action is to pull the trigger.)

Utah, Arizona and Alaska are tied for the last position (50), with zero points, on the rating giving to states by Brady Campaign...

http://www.bradycampaign.me/sites/default/files/2011_Brady_Campaign_State_Scorecard_Rankings.pdf

 

[skeptic]

I read that and their one statement, "Among other things, Utah allows for open carry of unloaded firearms without a concealed firearm permit..." is a bit misleading and I guess it depends on a person's idea of "unloaded."
Utah allows for an open carry of a handgun, without a concealed permit, so long as the weapon is two actions away from firing. (Ex. semi-auto, you can carry with a full mag, but no round in the pipe, so first action is to rack the slide back and load a round, second action is to pull the trigger.)

Utah, Arizona and Alaska are tied for the last position (50), with zero points, on the rating giving to states by Brady Campaign...

http://www.bradycampaign.me/sites/default/files/2011_Brady_Campaign_State_Scorecard_Rankings.pdf

Yes, finally a list where UT is tied for dead last that I'm happy about.

The unloaded thing threw me the first time I heard about it, I was thinking "what's the point?" Turns out, like you said, it really means no round in the chamber. I think it's a little more complicated with a revolver, but whatever. This was the same restriction for constitutional carry (concealed carry without a permit) that was vetoed, along with a few other restrictions on where you can/can't carry.

Now, if we could just get a federal concealed carry license and elimination of so-called gun free zones us law abiding citizens could carry in all reasonable locations without having to look up local and state laws when we travel. I visited my family back in OR over the summer and after trying to figure out all the state and local laws I finally just gave up and decided to leave my gun at home.

 

[bendyprissy]

there are no specifics other than it needs to be concealed. in texas, you are allowed to have a concealed handgun in your vehicle without a concealed handgun license. you are allowed to carry from your house to your vehicle and from your vehicle to your house without a concealed handgun license. as dave said, it would probably be good to have a waterproof box to keep it in while on the kayak. it is my belief that taking the concealed handgun course and getting the license is a waste of time and money unless you are wanting to carry quite often into stores and walking around. if you just want it in your vehicle or kayak while you are "driving" around, I wouldn't waste the time or money, which I know you are very busy in your profession so time is money. hope I have answered your questions. you have my number if you have more questions.

Thank you frumaker. That was my hope for the situation. Not that I intend on kayaking through the ghetto or anything; however, I will have occasions where I go alone & since this is Texas, there is always the possibility of alligators. Those suckers jump out of the water! So much for taking the dog as I hear that's what they like to go after. Anyway, will put it in a ziplock bag so I can access it immediately if need be. If it did get water on it, does that mean a break down & cleaning of the gun?

 

[TAPDH3T]

Anytime u get condensation on or in ur firearm it's always best to clean and oil to prevent rust etc. etc.

 

[f5moab]

Yes, finally a list where UT is tied for dead last that I'm happy about.

The unloaded thing threw me the first time I heard about it, I was thinking "what's the point?" Turns out, like you said, it really means no round in the chamber. I think it's a little more complicated with a revolver, but whatever. This was the same restriction for constitutional carry (concealed carry without a permit) that was vetoed, along with a few other restrictions on where you can/can't carry.

Now, if we could just get a federal concealed carry license and elimination of so-called gun free zones us law abiding citizens could carry in all reasonable locations without having to look up local and state laws when we travel. I visited my family back in OR over the summer and after trying to figure out all the state and local laws I finally just gave up and decided to leave my gun at home.

Federal CC scares me. The idea that the Feds take over what the majority of states do a decent job at worries me. Besides all the federal carry laws that have been presented would still require you to know what each state allows and does not allow for concealed carry. The bills presented were just bills made to require all states to recognize a concealed permit from any state, but that permit holder was still required to follow the laws of that particular state. So, even though we, in UT, can carry into a bar (not just a restaurant, but an actual bar), not sure if that would be possible in any other state.
As for OR, they do not recognize a UT permit (or any state's permit; other than their own) so best you left your gun at home.

And I believe that UT needs to change their law to recognize only states that recognize their (Utah's) permit.

Sorry...off topic...

 

[Steve #1]

As others have said, yes, your fine, but I always find the best place to find out if something is legal or not is to see what the law says. ​Contrary to what fru said, I would highly recommend getting a CHL. I don't think it would be hard to find an LEO that didn't know that the law covers you in a watercraft. At the time the law was updated a few years ago, I believe it was the Harris CO DA (may have been a Constable) instructed officers to charge people with illegally carrying a prohibited weapon. Hopefully this is no longer the case. CHL will cover you if you run in to a store or something, otherwise you have to leave then handgun in your vehicle. In my book it's well worth a couple hundred buck and 8 hours of your time.


Sec. 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the person is not:
(1) on the person's own premises or premises under the person's control; or
(2) inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle or watercraft that is owned by the person or under the person's control.
(a-1) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun in a motor vehicle or watercraft that is owned by the person or under the person's control at any time in which:
(1) the handgun is in plain view; or
(2) the person is:
(A) engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic or boating;
(B) prohibited by law from possessing a firearm; or
(C) a member of a criminal street gang, as defined by Section 71.01.
(a-2) For purposes of this section, "premises" includes real property and a recreational vehicle that is being used as living quarters, regardless of whether that use is temporary or permanent. In this subsection, "recreational vehicle" means a motor vehicle primarily designed as temporary living quarters or a vehicle that contains temporary living quarters and is designed to be towed by a motor vehicle. The term includes a travel trailer, camping trailer, truck camper, motor home, and horse trailer with living quarters.
(a-3) For purposes of this section, "watercraft" means any boat, motorboat, vessel, or personal watercraft, other than a seaplane on water, used or capable of being used for transportation on water.

 

[SickStringC]

Here's my $.02 ...

I have my CHL. For me, the biggest thing that sets apart a CHL licensee with a firearm in a vehicle and a non CHL licensee is the legal limit of alcohol consumption as well as the increased penalty should you happen to be charged with a crime while carrying. To be clear - I don't personally engage in nor do I condone drinking to excess and driving - especially if you have your firearm, but I do like to occasionally grab a beer with friends to go to happy hour for a beer after work with co-workers. The legal limit for alcohol consumption for a CHL carrying individual with their firearm on them is .01 (it is still .08 for non CHL carriers who have a concealed weapon under the Castle Law). In other words - you cannot drink AT ALL and operate ANY motor vehicle under the influence if your firearm is in your vehicle anywhere other than in the rear trunk / storage, out of reach and unloaded with the ammo separate from the firearm if you have a CHL (I'm sure Fru can be more specific on this, but at this point, you are carrying under the castle law and not actually considered to be 'concealed carrying' with a CHL). Additionally, should you be charged with any crime with your firearm, the charges are automatically upgraded to the next severity if said crime was committed while carrying. That said - just know that with the right to carry concealed with a CHL comes a greater responsibility to adhere to the more strict laws and severe penalties for those that do carry with their CHL.

Please, those of you who are law enforcement correct me if I am incorrect in any of the above. This is what I was taught in class and I try to keep up with the law as it changes.

 

[frumaker]

chris, it doesn't matter what law enforcement says, opinions will be offered. hopefully Julie will take the correct info from these posts and use them. thank you steve #1 for posting the texas law so now people can argue against that. where people run in to trouble, at least this is my professional opinion and personal experiences, is when they are carrying a weapon and do something stupid. if you have a weapon on you and you are doing the right thing, LEO's more than likely wont screw with you. but, who knows. let me see how many people I can catch slipping today while at work.

Here's my $.02 ...

I have my CHL. For me, the biggest thing that sets apart a CHL licensee with a firearm in a vehicle and a non CHL licensee is the legal limit of alcohol consumption as well as the increased penalty should you happen to be charged with a crime while carrying. To be clear - I don't personally engage in nor do I condone drinking to excess and driving - especially if you have your firearm, but I do like to occasionally grab a beer with friends to go to happy hour for a beer after work with co-workers. The legal limit for alcohol consumption for a CHL carrying individual with their firearm on them is .01 (it is still .08 for non CHL carriers who have a concealed weapon under the Castle Law). In other words - you cannot drink AT ALL and operate ANY motor vehicle under the influence if your firearm is in your vehicle anywhere other than in the rear trunk / storage, out of reach and unloaded with the ammo separate from the firearm if you have a CHL (I'm sure Fru can be more specific on this, but at this point, you are carrying under the castle law and not actually considered to be 'concealed carrying' with a CHL). Additionally, should you be charged with any crime with your firearm, the charges are automatically upgraded to the next severity if said crime was committed while carrying. That said - just know that with the right to carry concealed with a CHL comes a greater responsibility to adhere to the more strict laws and severe penalties for those that do carry with their CHL.

Please, those of you who are law enforcement correct me if I am incorrect in any of the above. This is what I was taught in class and I try to keep up with the law as it changes.

 

[skeptic]

Federal CC scares me. The idea that the Feds take over what the majority of states do a decent job at worries me. Besides all the federal carry laws that have been presented would still require you to know what each state allows and does not allow for concealed carry. The bills presented were just bills made to require all states to recognize a concealed permit from any state, but that permit holder was still required to follow the laws of that particular state. So, even though we, in UT, can carry into a bar (not just a restaurant, but an actual bar), not sure if that would be possible in any other state.
As for OR, they do not recognize a UT permit (or any state's permit; other than their own) so best you left your gun at home.

And I believe that UT needs to change their law to recognize only states that recognize their (Utah's) permit.

Sorry...off topic...

Oh, I agree with all of this, and I probably wasn't clear about one thing. I don't want a federal CCW law (like I unintentionally implied), I want a federal requirement that all states recognize each other's CCW/CWP/whatever license just like the way I can drive in any state with my UT drivers license. I shudder to think what an actual federal CCW permit would require, or what they'd do with the list they'd make. Of course there would be differences state to state for things like carrying in bars or on school grounds, or magazine capacity, but that's pretty minor and anyone with a CCW/CWP should know to check things like that before going to another state.

For the OR thing, I was hoping I could bring my gun along as half the trip was visiting my brother-in-law in WA, and just leave it in the glove box in OR. As far as I could tell, that would have been fine for parts of OR, but other areas I couldn't even keep the gun unloaded unless it was locked up and no loaded magazines anywhere within reach. I gave up on trying to figure out the county by county rules, and even city by city stuff. From a political or constitutional point of view, it really bothers me that I can't legally drive to OR to visit my family and have my gun at least semi-available for protection at various rest stops and such. From a practical point of view, the odds of needing one during the 1 or 2 trips to OR I make a year are so low I don't worry about it.

 

[bendyprissy]

chris, it doesn't matter what law enforcement says, opinions will be offered. hopefully Julie will take the correct info from these posts and use them. thank you steve #1 for posting the texas law so now people can argue against that. where people run in to trouble, at least this is my professional opinion and personal experiences, is when they are carrying a weapon and do something stupid. if you have a weapon on you and you are doing the right thing, LEO's more than likely wont screw with you. but, who knows. let me see how many people I can catch slipping today while at work.

I called the ranger station for the Sam Houston National Forest & they put the law enforcement officer on the phone. I asked him what I asked here & he said absolutely not...to my question of can I carry a handgun in my kayak if it is concealed, without me having a CHL. I then asked, does that mean your kayak is not considered your personal vehicle? He proceeded to tell me that was a very grey area & that he may not give me problems with it but that a game warden, or the other law enforcement that is federal ( I am totally drawing a blank on what his title is) may in fact give me problems with it. He told me if it was him he would not carry, just to be safe legally. That was not what I wanted to hear, especially since it is not safe to take my dog ( due to alligators). I also can't take a taser because...water. I guess I could shoot someone/something with a flare gun. :banghead: He did mention hunting because you can hunt the feral hogs year-round, but your gun must be visible at all times & only on the land designated for hog hunting...so not in a kayak, which is why I don't understand his reasoning for informing me of that. But oh well. I will evidently have to get a CHL in order to carry in my kayak. I have reasons why I do not want to get my CHL that I do not want to share here. And no, it's not because I cannot carry legally, because I can; it is personal but justifiable to me. Perhaps a crossbow would be in order, though I do not feel nearly as confident with my crossbow abilities as I do with a handgun. Oh well, what can you do?

 

[skeptic]

I have reasons why I do not want to get my CHL that I do not want to share here. And no, it's not because I cannot carry legally, because I can; it is personal but justifiable to me.

My wife is the same way. She can get her license and even took the class a few years ago, but she doesn't want her name on this type of gov't list. Before you think it, she is not a conspiracy theorist either. I believe she will eventually get her license because, as you point out, there are times when she would want to carry but can't. She does not illegally carry.

 

[bendyprissy]

My wife is the same way. She can get her license and even took the class a few years ago, but she doesn't want her name on this type of gov't list. Before you think it, she is not a conspiracy theorist either. I believe she will eventually get her license because, as you point out, there are times when she would want to carry but can't. She does not illegally carry.

And Bing-o was his name-o.

 

[f5moab]

I called the ranger station for the Sam Houston National Forest & they put the law enforcement officer on the phone. I asked him what I asked here & he said absolutely not...to my question of can I carry a handgun in my kayak if it is concealed, without me having a CHL. I then asked, does that mean your kayak is not considered your personal vehicle? He proceeded to tell me that was a very grey area & that he may not give me problems with it but that a game warden, or the other law enforcement that is federal ( I am totally drawing a blank on what his title is) may in fact give me problems with it. He told me if it was him he would not carry, just to be safe legally. That was not what I wanted to hear, especially since it is not safe to take my dog ( due to alligators). I also can't take a taser because...water. I guess I could shoot someone/something with a flare gun. :banghead: He did mention hunting because you can hunt the feral hogs year-round, but your gun must be visible at all times & only on the land designated for hog hunting...so not in a kayak, which is why I don't understand his reasoning for informing me of that. But oh well. I will evidently have to get a CHL in order to carry in my kayak. I have reasons why I do not want to get my CHL that I do not want to share here. And no, it's not because I cannot carry legally, because I can; it is personal but justifiable to me. Perhaps a crossbow would be in order, though I do not feel nearly as confident with my crossbow abilities as I do with a handgun. Oh well, what can you do?

Could be US fish and wildlife, but there is probably a Texas equivalent. I know in some states, you cannot carry into areas during hunting season without a license or a gun permit (concealed or otherwise). So possibly that is the problem.
And the US forest service, as well as BLM, NPS, etc., follow state laws on carrying of handguns. Only exception I know of is US Corp of Engineer and the areas they are in charge of. They were not part of the bill signed to allow carry into the national parks back, about four years ago.

The main problem is, and I hope the police officers on here take no offense, but the laws in many states are so damn complex that only a district attorney or equivalent will know for certain what is and isn't allowed, and many of them need to look up the laws to find out if something is legal or illegal. And that is only state law, bring in Federal laws and it is a whole other story.

And don't worry about being on a list. Many people get permits and never carry a gun except to and from the range or to cover themselves legally cause their spouse has a permit and sometimes it is in the car/truck and they aren't.

I'm guessing when I taught the concealed handgun course in TN many moons ago, there were usually about 10 percent of the class there to have a permit for the range or for those times a gun was in the car and their spouse ran into a post office or some other off-limits place.

 

[frumaker]

Julie, some state parks you cannot carry in regardless of the law. If that's what they were trying to say. A kayak is considered a water vessel which makes you able to carry concealed unless it is a state park rule


FRU

 

[f5moab]

Post deleted....

 

[Steve #1]

Like I said, it would be easy to find an LEO that didn't know the law.

First, the primary laws governing possession of firearms and other weapons on National
Forest are State Laws. These laws were developed by the states following establishment
of Cooperative Wildlife Management Agreements.

Texas Parks and Wildlife Department
Executive Director Order No. 98-001
Nothing in the Public Hunting Lands Proclamation or State Parks Proclamation prohibits a person from possessing a concealed handgun, loaded or unloaded, under the authority of a concealed handgun license issued by this state or any other state. Persons carrying concealed handguns must comply with all concealed handgun laws.

TITLE 31	NATURAL RESOURCES AND CONSERVATION
PART 2	TEXAS PARKS AND WILDLIFE DEPARTMENT
CHAPTER 65	WILDLIFE
SUBCHAPTER H	PUBLIC LANDS PROCLAMATION
RULE §65.199	General Rules of Conduct

(c) It is unlawful for any person to:
(2) possess a firearm, archery equipment, or any other device for taking wildlife resources on public hunting lands, except for persons authorized by the department to hunt or conduct research on the area, commissioned law enforcement officers, and department employees in performance of their duties;

Title 10 should hold president over Title 31 but you would likely end up having to have that determined by a judge. With a CHL you would be fine.

I do not know your reasons for not wanting to get a CHL CHL records are not disposable under open record laws and can only be disclosed to criminal justice agencies.