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Any home construction experts here?

High Five H2

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,627
Location
West Texas
I've been thinking recently about saving up and buying a house in a few years. I know having a house custom built to your own specifications is more expensive than a spec house, but how about acting as your own contractor, or even doing some of the construction yourself?

Any experience with that?
 

3Hummers

Super Moderator
Staff member
Messages
10,529
Location
Central Texas
I had my own custom home building company for 8 years. While I could do some of the work myself it was not a good use of my time. I make a lot more money working than I would save by doing things myself. Not sure what your situation is or where your talents lay but most people will fall into the same boat. If you have experience in finish carpentry, plumbing, tile, flooring, etc you could conceivably do some of the work and save yourself some money but if you have a construction loan don't forget that every extra day it takes you to do something costs you interest money. Most construction loans have a term also. Your permanent loan usually has an interest rate lock in expiration date also.
 

Chook

Well-Known Member
Messages
706
Location
Brisbane (Australia)
When I was younger I owner built a custom home. I performed Project Manager role mostly & subcontracted out. I had one builder permanent week to week who would make sure everything is right & looked after the technical stuff. I labored for everyone & learnt a lot in the process.The good thing is you are always on site and can see first hand any issues & make decisions on the spot. (A lot of times I think I got a better job from the contractors also because I was there as well)


If you truly want a custom home then I would recommend it. If you are just doing it to save money you would save more Time/Money/Stress having a Project Spec Home built that ticks most of your requirements.
 
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SuperBuickGuy

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,403
Location
Woodinville, WA
Are you planning on project management or being the general contractor?

In the end, it's what you don't know that will cost you. 1 in 1000 can general or pm a project - if you have a good idea of what each trade does, and have a good grasp of the laws in your area - then by all means, do it yourself. If you have trouble hammering a nail... get a good contractor and let them do that work. Here's the thing that most miss when they say "how hard can it be": contractors get trade discounts; they will pass some of those savings on to you if they direct the entire project; however, they will never do so when you manage your own project. For them, they know the steps, when to order stuff, when to get subs in so they don't work over each other, and how to make all the time lines come together in 3 months. Most owner builts take 6 months to a year to complete.

Add another wrinkle, when it's owner built, most contractors build in more hours to do their work because when an owner hovers, more time is spent explaining stuff or simply shooting the breeze than is actually done. When I bid owner builts, I'd normally bid at least twice the amount I would have bid a contractor. If I felt you'd be a PITA, 4x. Here's the rub, there isn't any one thing that gets their concern. If someone's licensed, you have an idea of what it will take to get it done. But there is no history for an owner-built, so words like "I've never done this before" is obviously a red flag, or even the 10 year old, not-a-scratch-on-it BMW is yet another sign this person's going to be tough to please.... tough is fine, but tough costs money.

LABOR%20RATES.gif
 

High Five H2

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,627
Location
West Texas
I don't know what the difference is between a general contractor and a project manager. In an ideal world, I would buy some land, live in a trailer, buy the materials as I needed them and build the whole thing myself. Obviously, I can't do that because I don't know anything about wiring and plumbing a house and I don't have the equipment for laying a foundation. I'm sure there's smaller stuff I could do, like hanging drywall and painting and stuff. I could learn how to do other stuff.

Realistically, I would probably just contract out each part and have someone do it for me. I have read that a general contractor costs a lot of money and that you can basically do his job by hiring all those people yourself, but I don't know if that's true, and I doubt it. I'm not looking to save money, I just want to have a house built that's exactly how I want it. I don't know the process or the best way to build my own house. I'd like to do it in 10 years or so. I'm just really curious about the whole thing. I guess it's part of how I have to have everything built exactly the way I like it, from my stupid hummer and other project cars, to a computer I'm building, to building a custom rifle.

ugh, I wish I was happy with things the way they were mass produced sometimes...not really :)

thanks for the info, tho.

Super BG, what do you do for a living? I thought you were a lawyer? maybe I'm just confused.
 

3Hummers

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10,529
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Central Texas
You can contract out your own house by hiring each trade directly. The only issue is that you need to know enough about what they do to know if their pricing is fair, if they have done the work correctly and how much you should pay them at each stage. The best way for a non-contractor type to get what they want is to hire the architect yourself and work with them to design exactly the house you want...and can afford. Having built custom homes up to 16,000 SF and as small as 2000SF the intersection between dreams and budget is usually not at happy street.
 

SuperBuickGuy

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,403
Location
Woodinville, WA
I don't know what the difference is between a general contractor and a project manager. In an ideal world, I would buy some land, live in a trailer, buy the materials as I needed them and build the whole thing myself. Obviously, I can't do that because I don't know anything about wiring and plumbing a house and I don't have the equipment for laying a foundation. I'm sure there's smaller stuff I could do, like hanging drywall and painting and stuff. I could learn how to do other stuff.

Realistically, I would probably just contract out each part and have someone do it for me. I have read that a general contractor costs a lot of money and that you can basically do his job by hiring all those people yourself, but I don't know if that's true, and I doubt it. I'm not looking to save money, I just want to have a house built that's exactly how I want it. I don't know the process or the best way to build my own house. I'd like to do it in 10 years or so. I'm just really curious about the whole thing. I guess it's part of how I have to have everything built exactly the way I like it, from my stupid hummer and other project cars, to a computer I'm building, to building a custom rifle.

ugh, I wish I was happy with things the way they were mass produced sometimes...not really :)

thanks for the info, tho.

Super BG, what do you do for a living? I thought you were a lawyer? maybe I'm just confused.

History of SBG
Born
my dad started a sheet metal shop, and remodeled houses to use as rentals.
started working for dad 1974
fell off a roof 1998
during the above time - I'd work on and off as a general contractor/builder at one time I was even licensed to do so
went back to college then law school

now I sue contractors for negligent construction - I'm sure the contractors wish I'd fallen off a taller roof....


and never hire an architect to run a project - they go on very expensive vacations paid for by those suppliers and contractors they recommend. Not to mention, my experience with architects is that they design what cannot be built.
I also bat away contractors who want to hire me to do project management. Generally, project managers are hired by the owner to over see the contractors on large projects.
 
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twinmill28

Spilled Milk
Messages
1,545
Location
El Centro, Mehico (Way So Cal)
We had our house built ten years ago. It was a land/home package house to be built with a house plan we felt would work best for us. This was after looking at houses for years and not finding anything suitable for what we wanted. We looked at Henry and Adams homes, which is a rubber stamp builder and won't make one modification from their plans--their business is built on building alot of cheap homes fast. That's not what we wanted.
When we found our home lot, it was one of the last in the neighborhood because the lot was flat in front and sloped almost 40 feet in the back down to the main road. Our backyard is heavily wooded and looks massive compared to a regular backyard. It's also a lot of fun for the kids to play in as it's not boring to have that many trees and a huge hill to climb. You gotta remember Florida is mostly flat and people want pools in their backyard, so we got a deal with the lot not being too workable without great expense for retaining walls. That was none to us, we wanted the feel of living in the mountains and loved the sloping back yard.
Anyway, we worked with our builder, who also had an architect on his staff and was capable of making changes to the house plan to accommodate us moving the air conditioning equipment, enlarging the master bath, and building a half bath on the main floor in addition to enlarging the garage a bit and adding a bunch more windows than the plan called for. A lot of that stuff cost us change order costs, but some of the floor plan changes didn't affect the initial cost and were done with no additional fees.
Our builder is what is known as a semi-custom builder who was willing to allow upgrades at a fee per upgrade plus materials/labor. I was working as a plumber at the time but did not try to do my own work as I wanted his crews to handle the build start to finish.
Ultimately we upgraded a lot of standard finish items so we could avoid having to pay to upgrade them anyway in a couple of years. We upgraded spec'd lino flooring to hardwood (I was able to sell 30 days of leave to pay for that one!), all of the plumbing fixtures and kitchen sink and half bath sink (I'm a plumber, can't leave the fixtures alone!), and changed up a lot of electrical stuff to include separate switches for the ceiling fans & lights.
I was comfortable with building construction and still happy to have a prime contractor oversee the build and we were happy overall with the finished product. There's no way I could have done my full time work and taken on this house build trying to keep the contractors under control. Good luck figuring out which framers will give you the best price/work vs. jerking you around if you try doing it yourself--same with the sheetrock guys, flooring guys, plumbers, electricians, etc.
Plus, getting a bank to carry your loan while you contract your own build can be tough, and making deadlines will be a real PITA. Having your contractor responsible for the construction loan until the build is complete is a great feeling vs. having your neck on the line.
Don't get me wrong, I have a buddy who's now into his third build acting as his own Prime and he made good money on the sale of his last house. His deal is he comes home from long days at work and spends all his evenings working on the house, and a lot of his working hours are spent lining up contractors. It's doable, but you gotta enjoy the ass pain that comes with doing it that way.
Another thing is you need to be competent at reading blueprints--that's the life blood of your build. I was able to pick apart the electrical, plumbing, structural and other items and change what was to be built to what we wanted built. We changed out sliding patio doors for french doors (I'd have changed them after the house was built anyway--I hate sliders) and added several more doors not originally called for; and like I said, I added a bunch of windows and changed the frosted glass in the baths to clear (we have no front or rear neighbors and our two side neighbors houses are offset so it doesn't matter.
We also ended up with a 1400 sq. ft unfinished basement (part of the original attraction to the land/house package--more bang for our buck). Six months after signing for the completed 2100 sq. ft. main house, I started finishing the basement. I brought in a couple of buddies from work who were carpenters (and one was an electrician as well). I laid out the floor plan, bought the lumber and had them frame it up. Then we ran the electric and I installed the plumbing, to include finishing one bathroom with existing roughed-in plumbing and then jack hammering the new concrete and roughing in an additional bathroom. I then brought in the rockers, who sheet rocked the place in two days--that's fast. Then my wife brought in some church friends for a painting party and finally we had carpet and lino installed then I trimmed it all out myself and installed all the electric and plumbing fixtures.
In the end we have a 5 bedroom, 4-1/2 bath 3400 sq. ft house with two living rooms, kitchenette in the basement, two dens, and a bunch of other cool stuff. The important thing is we built the house right before the market tanked in 06, so we got it at a great price, and it's value has been above market for ten years.

BTW--I'm a great facility manager right now and loving my job---but my term is up in less than two months due to lack of budget to continue the position. Anybody needing a great facility manager, plumber, floor sweeper or door greater should contact me with a job offer. Otherwise I'll be the guy at the drive-thru asking if you want fries with that?
 
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Woodtick

Well-Known Member
Messages
801
Location
Ilanoid, UP MI
A lot of sound advice above. There is a sad truth to Buick guys post. Twinmills way may be a great option for you. Get the shell of the house built on the land you want. Do all of the costly up grades after you get your occupancy permit. The tax man only taxes you on what he can see from the street and what the house originally specked out at. Have a lot of your up grades ruffed in when they build the house.
 

3Hummers

Super Moderator
Staff member
Messages
10,529
Location
Central Texas
Project Managers typically work for the General Contractor. Construction Managers typically work for the owner/developer. Never seen an Architect work as a PM/CM, at least not one that worked for an architectural firm. Some architectural firms are great at design but can't draw construction drawings and vice versa. You need to know your consultants. There are a lot of civil, MEP and structural engineers that aren't very good. I hire all of the above plus geotechs, 3rd party structural inspectors/engineers, water proofing consultants, etc not only to make sure that the project gets built right but also to make sure the attornies have to look elsewhere to get a payday. All of this drives up the cost of construction. I see highly experienced, good contractors get sued frequently. It is a sick game of shaking down the insurance companies. If, as an amatuer, you think you can avoid all of the pitfalls and trapdoors of litigation and can save enough money then building your own home might be worth it. Be sure to carry appropriate insurance limits to include the cost of defense and settlement of any claims and that it is good for the term of the statutory limits in your state for bringing a claim. Remember that if you get sued it can include everything from air space between walls to caulking. That contractor markup you were looking at saving isn't looking so good now is it? Of course if you aren't going to sell your home that you built before the statutory time frame in your state your potential liability goes down considerably.
 

SuperBuickGuy

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,403
Location
Woodinville, WA
on your first house, get a general contractor to do the entire thing with the stated allowance that you will watch over his shoulder and make him explain as he goes along.... spend time on the site, sweep floors and ask questions... after that, you will do your own house. The problem generally happens like this: owner gets a GC, watches until he gets bored (generally about the the the electricians arrive), then figures he knows everything he needs to know. Problem is, in project scope, it takes 30 days to weathertight... remember I said before it's 90 days to occupancy? all the important stuff happens after the roof is put on... and that's where the experience of a qualified GC really shines through because they make it look so easy.

GCs do get sued, it happens. The ones that get sued most are the ones that start taking short cuts and/or over extended themselves.

As for house building. I have a friend who is a GC that builds a house for himself every 3 years then sells it. Makes very good money at it. Takes him about 9 months between work and life obligations to build his own house.

oh yeah, and don't get me started on architects or electricians for that matter...
 

High Five H2

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,627
Location
West Texas
oh gosh.. this stuff is very complicated. good thing it's a long way off... or maybe my imagination is just too big for my wallet. lucky for me, I'm trying to get into directional drilling which pays gobs of money, downside is I'll have to live in west texas, which sucks. i want to move to BFE, colorado in around 5 years. there's a lot of drilling in CO, but not as much as here :-/
 

chaos254

Well-Known Member
Messages
577
Location
United States
I would suggest buying an already built house. The current market is great for buyers since prices are still way down and low interest rates.We are currently buying a foreclosure for cheap.. sure it needs work but there is no way we could build a compareable house for the same money.
 

High Five H2

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,627
Location
West Texas
yeah, that's true. where i live is kind of the opposite, though. you wouldn't think that the middle of nowhere west texas would be this way, but it's about as expensive to live here at LA. I think midland, where I live, is one of the most expensive places to live in the US right now. I am moving into a 2 bedroom townhouse that's at a pretty cruddy complex for $1250 and I honestly could not find anything cheaper. My co-worker bought a house 2 or 3 years ago for $90K, and she says the value is around $130K. The oil boom is making everyone and their dog move out here. They just can't hire enough people. Every fast food place in town has a now hiring sign up and some are paying as much as $15/hour. It's totally bizarre. My background is in developmental biology. I just finished my MS in December and you would think that will stem cell research and all that other biotech stuff that's being developed now I'd be able to find a job working in a lab pretty easily, but because of the economy and also because lots of people go into biology, I couldn't find a job worth having. Lucky for me, I have family down here and I am working in a cement analysis lab. It sounds complicated but it's one of the easiest jobs I've ever had. If you've ever even walked into a college before you have more education than most people here and you can get hired on the spot. I've worked as an analytical chemist a few times so I've used equipment that's actually not that uncommon but sounds like alien technology to most of these guys here.

this is how my interview went, just imagine the guy interviewing me with (no kidding) a dip in his cheek, he doesn't move his face to talk, and a west texas drawl:

boss: "y'ever worked in a lab before?"
me: (i give a quick rundown of my 8 years of lab experience, graduate school work, and chemistry experience)
boss: *blank stare*.... ok

They took me in to talk to the vice president of the company and I told him the same thing, and he said (same thing, dip, no expression or facial movement when he talks, drawl), "I don't even know what all that means. By the way, lose the f****** tie if you want to work here."

Tell you what, it's a whole different world out here for me.
 

SuperBuickGuy

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,403
Location
Woodinville, WA
yeah, that's true. where i live is kind of the opposite, though. you wouldn't think that the middle of nowhere west texas would be this way, but it's about as expensive to live here at LA. I think midland, where I live, is one of the most expensive places to live in the US right now. I am moving into a 2 bedroom townhouse that's at a pretty cruddy complex for $1250 and I honestly could not find anything cheaper. My co-worker bought a house 2 or 3 years ago for $90K, and she says the value is around $130K. The oil boom is making everyone and their dog move out here. They just can't hire enough people. Every fast food place in town has a now hiring sign up and some are paying as much as $15/hour. It's totally bizarre. My background is in developmental biology. I just finished my MS in December and you would think that will stem cell research and all that other biotech stuff that's being developed now I'd be able to find a job working in a lab pretty easily, but because of the economy and also because lots of people go into biology, I couldn't find a job worth having. Lucky for me, I have family down here and I am working in a cement analysis lab. It sounds complicated but it's one of the easiest jobs I've ever had. If you've ever even walked into a college before you have more education than most people here and you can get hired on the spot. I've worked as an analytical chemist a few times so I've used equipment that's actually not that uncommon but sounds like alien technology to most of these guys here.

this is how my interview went, just imagine the guy interviewing me with (no kidding) a dip in his cheek, he doesn't move his face to talk, and a west texas drawl:

boss: "y'ever worked in a lab before?"
me: (i give a quick rundown of my 8 years of lab experience, graduate school work, and chemistry experience)
boss: *blank stare*.... ok

They took me in to talk to the vice president of the company and I told him the same thing, and he said (same thing, dip, no expression or facial movement when he talks, drawl), "I don't even know what all that means. By the way, lose the f****** tie if you want to work here."

Tell you what, it's a whole different world out here for me.

You really need to consider moving to Seattle if you want to do biotech. With that said, you'll fall over at the prices here.
 

Big2dabank

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,220
Location
Central Florida
I am both a civil engineer and a contractor and I probably know as much or more than anyone building a house. However, with that said, I would never tackle building a home myself. First, my personal time is worth a lot more to me than what it would cost to pay some one to do the work. Second, You can only get mad at yourself if you do something wrong and the cost to fix is on you, if the sub screws up or cannot pass an inspection its on him to get it correct. Third, I don't build houses everyday, so I would expect to encounter some complications that might slow down the process. I can tell you from experience learned the hard way.

When I was younger, 28 years old, I built my first home and shortly thereafter was in my first lawsuit. I was fresh out of engineering school, happily married for a couple years and was pretty handy and thought I new a lot. Well I didn't. I hired a GC who was highly recommended and a friend of my family. Everything seemed to be going great until my cabinet guy showed up to hang cabinets, he was hired by me directly and didn't work for the builder. He called me and said the slab was out of level and this was reflected in floor and ceilings of every room. I called the GC immediately and long story short we ended up in a lawsuit and we discovered through pictures that I had taken that the slab was out of level from the very first day they set the form boards, but no one knew this or brought it to my attention at least. Every trade from then after tried to cover it up/mask it and work with it until my cabinet guy showed up. The slab turned out to be 0.625% out of level from one end of the house to the other. The house was built on a part of my family land that I would simply not sell to the builder and it got ugly for several years. We eventually settled out of court, but overall it was a really bad learning experience for me and my wife. I gave tours of the house to people to help them understand the things that could go wrong and what to look for until the day we tour it down, stick by stick. The materials from the torn down hours were reused to build a home for a friend who was really struggling and it was nice to see all that bad go to something good.

I agree with the idea getting the shell done up to the point sufficient enough to obtain occupancy, you can finish much of the interior yourself, if you can stomach living in a house that is in a constant state of construction. Be sure to check with your local building department to get an understanding of what will be required to obtain occupancy, this will most likely vary from state to state as jurisdictions will have some local adaptation and variation of the building code.

If you don't have experience doing this, the last thing you want to do is be your own contractor and/or try to control/schedule a bunch of trades you may not fully understand. Building a home is stressful. Over the years, I have designed several custom houses for people and no matter how much you think you know, something unexpected will come up and you will have to adapt and improvise to accommodate it. It could be the screwup of one of the trades, errors in the drawings, trying to accommodate a product that was not anticipated by the design, etc...

The point of all this is to show you just how important it is to hire someone with a solid reputation. A home is one of, if not the most expensive thing you will purchase in your life. Good Luck.
 
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High Five H2

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,627
Location
West Texas
I've thought about it before. I'm really passionate about biotech and I'm good at it, but it just doesn't pay as well as I would like and all the biotech hubs are places that I don't really want to live. I'd rather live in Seattle than here, but I really want to live around the rocky mountains. The company I work for would pay for me to get a 2nd BS in petroleum engineering which pays REALLY well, and since colorado is one of the big oil states I could live on the west side of denver and make good money and live close to the mountains (and closer to moab, which is awesome).

If I ever get to be an oil millionaire the first thing I'm going to do is build and awesome house on the side of a mountains and get snowed in 9 months out of the year. i don't know why, but that just sounds awesome to me.
 

SuperBuickGuy

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,403
Location
Woodinville, WA
I've thought about it before. I'm really passionate about biotech and I'm good at it, but it just doesn't pay as well as I would like and all the biotech hubs are places that I don't really want to live. I'd rather live in Seattle than here, but I really want to live around the rocky mountains. The company I work for would pay for me to get a 2nd BS in petroleum engineering which pays REALLY well, and since colorado is one of the big oil states I could live on the west side of denver and make good money and live close to the mountains (and closer to moab, which is awesome).

If I ever get to be an oil millionaire the first thing I'm going to do is build and awesome house on the side of a mountains and get snowed in 9 months out of the year. i don't know why, but that just sounds awesome to me.

If you ever decide to head this way - I and my wife can point you to the right people. I do a lot of employment law, she's a medical device mechanical engineer and has been so for 20 plus years. I'd like the sun of the Rockies and if I had my rathers, I'd rather live near Salt Lake City (but far enough away to escape their draconian smog laws)... that said, we've had the most glorious of summers ever - so while every place has things about it that make it neat, Seattle certainly did it's best to show its good side this summer.
 

3Hummers

Super Moderator
Staff member
Messages
10,529
Location
Central Texas
I am building a 252 unit apartment project in Lakewood, CO. ( on the west side of Denver but inside the 470. ) Pretty good place to be and amazing views.
 

High Five H2

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,627
Location
West Texas
I am both a civil engineer and a contractor and I probably know as much or more than anyone building a house. However, with that said, I would never tackle building a home myself. First, my personal time is worth a lot more to me than what it would cost to pay some one to do the work. Second, You can only get mad at yourself if you do something wrong and the cost to fix is on you, if the sub screws up or cannot pass an inspection its on him to get it correct. Third, I don't build houses everyday, so I would expect to encounter some complications that might slow down the process. I can tell you from experience learned the hard way.

When I was younger, 28 years old, I built my first home and shortly thereafter was in my first lawsuit. I was fresh out of engineering school, happily married for a couple years and was pretty handy and thought I new a lot. Well I didn't. I hired a GC who was highly recommended and a friend of my family. Everything seemed to be going great until my cabinet guy showed up to hang cabinets, he was hired by me directly and didn't work for the builder. He called me and said the slab was out of level and this was reflected in floor and ceilings of every room. I called the GC immediately and long story short we ended up in a lawsuit and we discovered through pictures that I had taken that the slab was out of level from the very first day they set the form boards, but no one knew this or brought it to my attention at least. Every trade from then after tried to cover it up/mask it and work with it until my cabinet guy showed up. The slab turned out to be 0.625% out of level from one end of the house to the other. The house was built on a part of my family land that I would simply not sell to the builder and it got ugly for several years. We eventually settled out of court, but overall it was a really bad learning experience for me and my wife. I gave tours of the house to people to help them understand the things that could go wrong and what to look for until the day we tour it down, stick by stick. The materials from the torn down hours were reused to build a home for a friend who was really struggling and it was nice to see all that bad go to something good.

I agree with the idea getting the shell done up to the point sufficient enough to obtain occupancy, you can finish much of the interior yourself, if you can stomach living in a house that is in a constant state of construction. Be sure to check with your local building department to get an understanding of what will be required to obtain occupancy, this will most likely vary from state to state as jurisdictions will have some local adaptation and variation of the building code.

If you don't have experience doing this, the last thing you want to do is be your own contractor and/or try to control/schedule a bunch of trades you may not fully understand. Building a home is stressful. Over the years, I have designed several custom houses for people and no matter how much you think you know, something unexpected will come up and you will have to adapt and improvise to accommodate it. It could be the screwup of one of the trades, errors in the drawings, trying to accommodate a product that was not anticipated by the design, etc...

The point of all this is to show you just how important it is to hire someone with a solid reputation. A home is one of, if not the most expensive thing you will purchase in your life. Good Luck.

wow, that sucks. that's one of the things I'm afraid of is that some huge mistake will ruin the whole house. I also don't want to start some project by myself and get into and realize I'm way over my head. Like SBG said, some contractor will charge me way more to fix my mistakes because they know I won't have a choice.
 

High Five H2

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,627
Location
West Texas
I was born and raised in the PNW, so going to Texas really, if not hell, is so close to hell you can see it from there.

Hell starts a little South of West Texas.

Yes. Yes, it does. I don't know why Texans are so obsessed with Texas and how awesome it is. It's very conservative so you don't have to deal with a lot of nanny state bullcrap, but other than that.....

Central Texas is not bad. The hill country is pretty but there's no public land so forget about hunting and off roading unless you pay to use an off road park or have a hunting lease ($$$$$$) Also, it's hot as balls and humid as ... balls, I guess. People say Houston is like a dog's mouth - hot, stinky, humid. It is.

The only reason to live in West Texas is if you work in the oil field. It's good money if you're willing to work long, long hours. A lot of people with no college make a good living out here. Other than that, it's almost as hot as east Texas, dry as frick, the flattest place on earth, and ugly. I know a lot of people here who wouldn't consider living or even visiting other places. My brother's (white trash idiot) girlfriend has never even been out of west Texas or New Mexico. When he suggested she visit Moab with him she said "No way. Too far away. Too many Mormons." That is seriously the attitude of a lot of people. If it's not in Texas, then it's not worth seeing.

Rant over, I guess. I'm just tired of being here, but the economy and my educational choices and a few other things mean I'm going to be here for a few years. oh well. At least I'm making good money out here. I'm paying off some credit card debt and student loans that my ex wife left me and saving money. If this pet eng thing works out, then that will be great. It's not biotech, but I think the whole "do what you love and watch the bills pay themselves" attitude is bullcrap.

well, that got off topic...

Actually, if you want close to hell, try south Arizona. I was born in Yuma. It's super hot and the unemployment rate is like 20%. At least there rock crawling, though. I grew up in New Mexico and its just as bad.
 
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3Hummers

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I live in Central Texas. Terrain, temperature and humidity aren't what make Texas Texas. The people, their attitudes about life, self-reliance, independence, small government, etc are what make Texas great. California I beautiful, it is all the liberal people in CA that ruin it.
 
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