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4BT + 6L80e

RamRod

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,914
Location
AB, Canada

CaseyS

Well-Known Member
Messages
732
Location
Louisiana
I'll have to find out if the stand alone controller supports tap to shift mode. I hope it does because that will be real handy off road.
 

RamRod

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,914
Location
AB, Canada
What stang alone controller are you using? There are system out there that can do this now for trans that arnt even electronic, so I am sure it can be done!

Sent from my SM-G935W8 using Tapatalk
 

CaseyS

Well-Known Member
Messages
732
Location
Louisiana
I plan to use the one from tbms since I am getting their adapter I can one stop shop.

As best as I can tell, both zero gravity and tbms use a private labeled Powertrain control solutions TCM-2650. I actually called PCS and they don't sell direct. I wish I could find any technical info, wiring diagrams etc on this thing to at least be able to pre plan what else I might need to gather. I guess you have to buy it to find out what's in it.
 

CaseyS

Well-Known Member
Messages
732
Location
Louisiana
Testing google photo share. Looks like you can upload to google. Create an album and upload straight from phone. To get the pic to imbed I had to click down to the photo in the google shared album and right click to get image location. Then just paste into post and manually add
tags around the ling

Got my output shaft back finally. Turned down to 27 spline. Next phase starts soon.

8xpvHJQkfUR2oNdVNjw5i_GtdNhTuJnNMh-Y138RyTxbuXEGMROJKzn02IHT31urpGkZjqv_U4hk3rJs7gZunlJt_GrULWep6iEiahRxVEKXsFh4tXOcwj9N5ZgR_yrpFq3oRBONqDej4djLcj5TJw6JOhAW55SsJrxGASfXM22D4khhavhcMWylJaiG-n5kX9qS9OSxkhGt18IJ2f03mKUw4X0BlkDgVatMI9spzW4AnlyYT1z5o_J_5MyC5qpaJC28CReIJx0RRKADaRP9TNfEdYvOLRH7A3oWlobomrRfm6hBvrkf4TanynZTVP1tSRyNGv1kEb36DWYCNObpk95OkwSZdV1HqsH5bQdHYVBXwJ7EOTMsqbZnPUjAM5GDtHjA-YlcPqzAKq_GOeNCe2E4qaGqOEcbYnGJmW7RVZrMY6jCFiqcBLgydKi5ybzgFyNVJhkVdiies9LSxQTSbdkqu7y65rAe7vhfKUxXj1vHm2yz2G1UkSBQbKKqOQ9BWAPyzj3cWD-AfuAGXPN858ls9dSDjoL17rQbMkEWOVYf3XBxFamGsnvaD68J_zGP82rjMJn8lt42DYs4A5AkCg5Z_76rbESuDa8sp5Ko8qj78zVHSHk=w371-h659-no


dc0VeyxPjv_4NTCBNMJZAO4Nw_JDV7bwZqEaNCZk3KglYXNDlBVpJLrZua4bGffeqKJSApebX3kuC0SdXSJoSqvpiBE5B-EnBhCJ12_KKcsg5LOKMJoPEtjrJThs0qyvzeCl48F8CuGhmHxRoWOVq6wTOcTLcSMKQ1XRX7zbiPBvWOX7dpiVJBBpYjrQFNEaS2iRVDqyyGZhEgzFMk2sd4UGkM8OF3RPZmu4ivLB3fYWA1q24m0g1GiF_pP6O5yFSIHkmlzJcDTAxAKWMAkhHPo_4eGbe3XiBMtwjQBHIE1hMpYhLv3onJ3lVlxz-BzJjKpy1tiEehz5RuCuaehPkK3nVandfe1tYbPTkiy1OmykwGJBj4E67tX5t07hV2BcDJKx6z1WUWqwHUGAFKgpcWdDD1vWps73bZY3pQ4mzBjpUNycNWcz3rkYMX_nhlUQpaotDF_z2PKRwX-i0C1_VyLUcKiV6eQ3hDIRvvBqJ9SnYRjQmS0FufAxx_Gcfobq1LLQ4LOVHhVNHCY2YXFi6yE3MHmVdUb0ctaasAniXI9qCtZ0z6q3zSq6ogdK0y36gZP6XiNpop8jj5sIlvX-knPsDJfQ9pRVGW2MTBLr-Kdj37mXI0k=w371-h659-no


This is Aventr's shaft. Notice how they turned down further on the shaft with a tighter radius. That will cause more stress at that radius. I like how mine looks better now that I compare the two.

20151009_101259.jpg
 
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CaseyS

Well-Known Member
Messages
732
Location
Louisiana
Ok, finally back on this project. I started yesterday afternoon with the disassembly and finished up this afternoon. I carried the case down to a local transmission shop and had them pop the monster snap ring off the center support. It took them all of 10 seconds and they didn't even charge me.

Here is a comparison of the original 32 spline shaft with the new 27 spline cut down shaft side by side.

Wz10Jau.jpg
fHOQeCe.jpg
 
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CaseyS

Well-Known Member
Messages
732
Location
Louisiana
Here are some pics of the teardown. I really like how this transmission is put together. Its quite simple inside and everything is concentric.

TeGH2iO.jpg


The trans fluid was quite dark and there is some material around the magnet in the pan so I was concerned when I first opened it up. I pulled all the clutch packs adn inspected them all and they all look in good shape as well as all of the bearings, so I have good confidence not having to replace anything. I will do the obvious like the filter and pan gasket and also plan to pickup a few new valve body to case seals and a new input shaft o-ring. I'll pick that up in the morning and reassemble this thing with the new shaft.

TI4QJWk.jpg


yaCSb2K.jpg


mv1VrYs.jpg
 

JPaul

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,402
Location
Way up north, UT
Seriously. As nice as it'd be to have a V8, my 3.7 really does pretty darn well until you're towing and/or going through the mountains. It really needed at least one more gear to make it a really great setup.
 

CaseyS

Well-Known Member
Messages
732
Location
Louisiana
Got the output shaft carrier and center support back in the case. I thought I could push the snap ring back in with out the special tool but I will have to get a shop to put it back in. More pics to follow once its fully assembled.

CeZJLl9.jpg
 

Kick'n Dust

Well-Known Member
Messages
62
Location
Dearborn Heights
I would recommend new friction and steel plates at this point. I know I would... I'm replacing a 1-2-3-4 clutch assembly for a customer right now because at 77k third gear is slipping.

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Kick'n Dust

Well-Known Member
Messages
62
Location
Dearborn Heights
Third gear makes a horrible groan when engaging even though everything specs out fine. Called technical assistance and they told me they have seen this problem and to just replace the clutches. I found GM offers a kit for the 1-2-3-4 clutch that comes fully assembled so that makes my job easier. Warranty is paying so why not?

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CaseyS

Well-Known Member
Messages
732
Location
Louisiana
I pulled every single steel and friction pack and they all look good. Nothing burnt or worn. Curious what type of "kit" GM offers for the 1-4 clutches? It takes all of 30 seconds to pop the snap ring and pull the clutches and steels out of the hub and replace them. Unless of course you are getting the entire hub. If I recall, thats the one that was prone to cracking in early versions. It would include the hub, pre-loaded pistons and clutches.

My trans is a 2011 so it should have all the updates.
 

Kick'n Dust

Well-Known Member
Messages
62
Location
Dearborn Heights
I pulled every single steel and friction pack and they all look good. Nothing burnt or worn. Curious what type of "kit" GM offers for the 1-4 clutches? It takes all of 30 seconds to pop the snap ring and pull the clutches and steels out of the hub and replace them. Unless of course you are getting the entire hub. If I recall, thats the one that was prone to cracking in early versions. It would include the hub, pre-loaded pistons and clutches.

My trans is a 2011 so it should have all the updates.
Your probably right about it being a revised part. This is a powertrain warranty repair I'm doing. GM does not pay much to overhaul components so if I can I'll just replace the whole assembly. Still it was interesting to be told by GM that even though the parts spec out that I should replace them anyhow. Was told they have had issues with third gear. Maybe some upgraded clutches are available through the aftermarket to help with the torque output of the 4bt?

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CaseyS

Well-Known Member
Messages
732
Location
Louisiana
Got the PCS-2650 controller in yesterday. I have it powered on the bench right now and am starting to play with the architecture of what is in it. All I can say is that this is going to be FUN! This controller is very universal and it looks like it has a lot of places to do custom fun stuff. Such as, tap shifting by configuring digital inputs. Tap shifting with a CAN compatible shifter. Secondary tow/haul map standard. Ability to lock the TCC by gear and by each of two separate tunes. TCC lock by configurable digital input (think 1st gear 4wd lo lock for crawling). Full datalogging if I want to do it. Free analog inputs for logging or misc. Free PWM outputs for fun stuff.
 

CaseyS

Well-Known Member
Messages
732
Location
Louisiana
Transmission is back together. Went back to the same transmission shop today and they popped the monster snap ring back in. Didn't even have to take the trans out the back of the Hummer. Tipped the tech $20 to get some lunch or afternoon shop beer. Everything in this pictures was taken apart with 9 bellhousing bolts, 6 valve body bolts and the one snap ring. And just needed a screwdriver or pick to pop the snap rings to pull and inspect all the clutches.
A7ttyym.jpg
WPYxGiq.jpg
 

H3slate

Brush raked
Messages
983
Location
Tualatin, Oregon
Got the PCS-2650 controller in yesterday. I have it powered on the bench right now and am starting to play with the architecture of what is in it. All I can say is that this is going to be FUN! This controller is very universal and it looks like it has a lot of places to do custom fun stuff. Such as, tap shifting by configuring digital inputs. Tap shifting with a CAN compatible shifter. Secondary tow/haul map standard. Ability to lock the TCC by gear and by each of two separate tunes. TCC lock by configurable digital input (think 1st gear 4wd lo lock for crawling). Full datalogging if I want to do it. Free analog inputs for logging or misc. Free PWM outputs for fun stuff.
Looks like this would work for my truck. So it could replace my controller so I could have a shift table for 4 low and still work with the rest of the oem electronics.

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CaseyS

Well-Known Member
Messages
732
Location
Louisiana
OK, with some e-mail information back from Jim at Zero Gravity I have some clarification on a few things. The TCS needs two basic things to get it going, a TPS signal and an RPM signal. After that, everything the transmission needs is transmitted to it on the CAN bus. The shift tables and shift timing are still resident in the transmission so I will still need HP tuners to set those up directly in the trans. Some of the features I described above i can still make work, but I will have to experiment some because some of the setup will be in the transmission. Looks like I can still swap shift tables from the 2650 via digital inputs which will be translated to CAN and sent to the transmission.

I spent part of the last two days experimenting with RPM signals. I know i can get the TPS signal there because I already have that in my 4L60e standalone. I first tried attaching to the 58x crank angle sensor. This is the factory 3.5 crank sensor hooked up like original to the ECU which feeds my stock tach. The timing was funny as the TCU appeared to only read the 2x gap it the wheel and give one pulse per rev. Scaling was set to get the right reading but the signal would glitch badly over 1500 RPM. I played more today with the filter settings and got it to work up to 3200 RPM (my redline) Knowing the tach would still need to function I then ran a test with the crank signal piggybacked to both the TCU and ECU. That did not work well as it would glitch the factory tach so after about 10 more minutes of testing I decided to abandon that approach.

There are two other approaches I can take, add another mag or hall effect sensor somewhere on the crank or flywheel end of the rotating parts, or use a tach pickup on the alternator. Knowing my alternator had a pickup, I decided to test that but was foiled when I discovered the wire harness I bought for it 4 years ago did not have a fourth wire for the tach (P terminal) pickup. I found the proper pigtail at a local alternator shop for $8 cash and picked it up. After soldering that in I ran a quick test and it works perfectly. I have the scaling close and will hone it in once I have everything wired properly into the vehicle. The only drawback to this approach is the case of a broken belt, the RPM signal will drop out. In that case, I can't get far anyway without the water pump turning. I'll have to test the failsafe performance by unplugging the RPM sensor once I'm up and going.
 
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Kick'n Dust

Well-Known Member
Messages
62
Location
Dearborn Heights
To remove and install that huge snap ring GM has snap ring pliers that are three feet long lol they look like bolt cutters at first glance. Keep up the cool mods. I am very interested to find out how the power of the diesel pulls the truck down the road. How much does the 4bt put out anyhow? 130 hp? How much torque?

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CaseyS

Well-Known Member
Messages
732
Location
Louisiana
The power of the diesel has been pulling it down the road for 4 years and 90,000 miles at about 19mpg average.

It's just time for a new project.

Also I didn't need to spend $80-$150 for giant snap ring pliers for a one time use when a shop didn't even want to charge me to do it.
 

Kick'n Dust

Well-Known Member
Messages
62
Location
Dearborn Heights
I didn't realize you've had the 4bt in your truck already. How does the power compare to the 5 cyl? I'm interested in this swap because I use my H3 to pull a small trailer with dirt bikes and our camping gear regularly, and sometimes my wife's car to the shop. With 35" MTs the little 5 cyl gets the job done but has no power on the freeway and gets like 10 mpg when pulling the toys up north Michigan. When the state bumped the speed limit from 70 to 75 I struggle to keep up with traffic without just sucking the gas tank empty

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mjferencak

Well-Known Member
Messages
308
Location
Elbert, CO
I cant wait for you to get all the bugs worked out on this project and put together an excel spreadsheet list of parts for both the 4BT and 6L80e conversion. My 3.5 is nearing the end of its life and a diesel would be great for towing my toys around. Keep up the great work CaseyS! I love reading your stuff.
 
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