S.A. Upgrade...How to make your own HP-passenger side D44...

[jakesz28]

When I get back from Moab I think I want one of those kits.

 

[jakesz28]

Dodge 60's are 2" narrower than the GM 60's. That's why I used a Dodge axle in my K5 - I didn't like the stock "front-wider-than-rear" thing. The late model 14bff I used turns out to be pretty much identical to the Dodge front 60 in width.

Yes, Dyna axles are retarded expensive. The price depends heavily on the options though. 13K sounds like he got every bell and whistle. AFAIK, 7K was more of a typical price, which is still stupidly expensive. If you get a used 60, plan on spending another grand getting it back to like-new condition. I opted to keep the stock brakes, which are large but VERY heavy. If you want lighter brakes, you can either go to thinner rotors (or hat-style rotors) and D44 calipers, or aftermarket. Aftermarket aluminum calipers will save the most weight, but they are $$$.

Do you happen to know the width of the dodge Dana 70? I'm going out this weekend to look at some dodge axles. He has matching Dana 60's70 and front and rear Dana 70's. The matching Dana 60's have 4.88's and lockers already. I'm not sure that I'm setups about do that to the H3 but I think I should buy just to hold on to. Think for simplicity I will most likely put a 44 in this. But my 91 truck could use a new front axle.

 

[MaxPF]

Great info Max. That Dodge Dana60 front axle is a PS drop correct? If so...that would be the one to use in the H3.

Correct. It is a right-hand drop, kingpin, low pinion, spindle-and-hub Dana 60. 94-up Dodge 60's are left hand drop, ball-joint, low-pinion units. I believe they have unit bearing hubs as well.

Obviously it doesn't apply to everyone but, keeping factory brakes & ABS is big deal to us H3 guys. Of all the ill-conceived, poorly-designed, half-hearted systems choking the H3....I gotta give props to GM for getting the brakes RIGHT. Its one of the few things on these trucks that I would never change. I've got a few swap "kits" being produced right now that adapt the stock H3 brakes to the Dana44 axle. I'm sure something similar could be done on the Dana60 as well. I'll post up some THORnews on the brake kits when I pick them up from the machine shop next week. This isn't something I plan to make a bunch of...but several H3 guys and some Colorado/Canyon guys have expressed an interest in them. Its a cheap & easy way to keep all your electronic systems fully functional, plus you get the benefit of keeping your modern high-tech brakes. Here's a teaser pic...
View attachment 9382

The only two complaints I have with the stock GM/Dodge Dana 60 brakes (Fords were different, of course) are weight and the floating caliper design. On the plus side, the piston area is absolutely enormous - much larger than the 6-piston Grand National type calipers I was contemplating swapping on. The pads are also large, especially on the floating side (smart engineering; since they wear faster, using a larger pad gives wear equalization). The rotors themselves are 13" in diameter, and 1.5" thick on the later Dodge axles (like mine) and all GM axles. While not as absolutely large as late model 1 ton front rotors, they are still plenty beefy. I may swap to the GN calipers when these brakes wear out, but it will require new rotors, hats to mount the rotors, custom caliper brackets, and I will need to carry spare pads since they are only available from Wilwood. The main advantage is 50lbs less unsprung weight and better heat dissipation, but I doubt they will have the absolute braking force of the stock D60 calipers.

One possible issue with swapping H3 calipers onto the D60 has to do with rotor width. I'm not sure how wide a stock H3 rotor is, but the early (88-back) Dodge D60 rotors are still 1.25" wide. Just something to look at. Another option, although I don't know the width, are 8-lug Dana 44 rotors. These are what guys use who do 1/2 or 3/4 ton brake swaps onto Dana 60's.

Do you happen to know the width of the dodge Dana 70? I'm going out this weekend to look at some dodge axles. He has matching Dana 60's70 and front and rear Dana 70's. The matching Dana 60's have 4.88's and lockers already. I'm not sure that I'm setups about do that to the H3 but I think I should buy just to hold on to. Think for simplicity I will most likely put a 44 in this. But my 91 truck could use a new front axle.

I think the Dodge D70 REAR is 65" WMS-WMS. Not 100% on that, but pretty close. If you are talking about a D70 front (which I dodn't know Dodge ever used), then they are probably much wider.

As far as "simplicity", SASing a 60 is no more work than SASing a 44. The only difference is 8 lug and money. One thing to carefully consider is whether you think you may want to run a 60 some time in the future. If so, you don't really want to spend money on lockers, gears, and bling axles and u-joints for a 44 or 10b, as you will NEVER recoup that money. If you are absolutely positive that a D44 (or 10b) will do whatever you need done, then by all means fire away.

 

[4speedfunk]

A story about re-couping your Dana 44 money...

I bought my current Dana 44 off a guy that had it installed in a CJ. It was orginally from GM truck, and swapping these into CJ's is a very common mod...due to the passenger-side drop. This guy had been running it (trail only rig) for about a year, and he was upgrading to a Dana 60. He posted the D44 on Craigslist just like this:

DANA 44 FRONT AXLE
Stock width, full-size Chevy, low pinion. Eaton E-locker, 5.13 Yukon gears, Stock knuckles drilled & studded for high-steer, 1" spacer blocks and high-steer arms included (rear stear), Cast HD cover, Stock axles, Spicer U-joints, Fresh bearings throughout, Fresh ball joints, Warn lock-outs
No whines, no leaks, Your choice of 6-lug or 8-lug outers. Currently installed in a CJ...will pull when I see cash...$1200

So I drive over to Ohio and meet the guy. He has the Dana 44 pulled and hanging on a cherry-picker...it was spotless. His Jeep was spot-less. The new Dana 60 was sitting there on the floor...it was spotless. His shop was spotless. Clearly...this is the type of guy I want to buy used stuff from. Given the list of equipment already installed in this axle...it was a no-brainer. Hell...the locker, gears, and bearings alone is worth $1200. So I flopped the cash on the spot. I eventually sold the high-steer arms and knuckles...for $400. I gutted the lock-outs, and all the brakes...and when it was all said & done, I got a pretty good deal.

Point of the story is...that guy took a bath on this axle. Building a Dana 44 from all new parts can cost you $3000-$5000. What MaxPF says is totally true, and when you're shopping for a donor axle...try to find a guy that is upgrading or getting a divorce. There are plenty of deals out there...you just gotta be vigilant.

 

[jakesz28]

I bought home a Dana 44 for the h3. I'm going to look at the dodge Dana 60 next weekend if I get a chance. He also has a Dana 70 front. Not sure if it was a factory dodge axle but I think it was. He ran a 70 front and rear in his mud truck.


I was disappointed that the Dana 44 did not have the flat knuckle on the passenger side. But its a start.

 

[4speedfunk]

Just buy a pre-machined & studded flat-top...save yourself the hassle.

 

[jakesz28]

If that's what I end up finding I will. But working in a machine shop, having programing experience. It does not take much to set one of those up on a mill dust the top off, then drill and tap three holes.

 

[MaxPF]

I bought home a Dana 44 for the h3. I'm going to look at the dodge Dana 60 next weekend if I get a chance. He also has a Dana 70 front. Not sure if it was a factory dodge axle but I think it was. He ran a 70 front and rear in his mud truck.


I was disappointed that the Dana 44 did not have the flat knuckle on the passenger side. But its a start.

Beware that earlier D70 fronts are closed knuckle and [strike]suck donkey balls[/strike] not at all desirable. If it is open knuckle it will have the same outers as a regular open knuckle D60. Still, the pig is larger and the whole axle is even heavier than a D60, which are already borderline too heavy for an H3. I'd pass on it. A D60 is more than enough axle for any H3, unless you are planning on running 52" ag tires or something If you really want a 10-1/2" front ring gear for some reason, get the D60 and do the Jana-76 mod to it, which puts a D70 carrier and gear set in the 60 housing. Swap to 35 spline outers (which you can do on a regular D60), and you have a D70 equivalent front end without the extra mass.

If that's what I end up finding I will. But working in a machine shop, having programing experience. It does not take much to set one of those up on a mill dust the top off, then drill and tap three holes.

That's pretty much it. I've done a few myself. Hardest part is finding the flat top knuckles to begin with. Again, if you are nead-nuts POSITIVE that you will never swap to a D60, then you could always splurge for the Reid Racing D44 knuckles. They ain't cheap, but they're beef. You could get just the right side knuckle, which would save you a lot of $$$ over the pair, but still cost more than a junkyard knuckle.

 

[jakesz28]

CJ i dont mean to jack up your thread. But I just talked to dynatrac on their 6 lug conversion for a dana 60. It is a little high. But if I skip some of the parts they would put together a kit that would allow me to use a dana 60 but their stubby hub kit. So this is new hubs, spindles, stub shafts, bearings. I would use the H3 rotors and calipers, this means I have to fab the caliper mount and abs sensor mount. He said he can put the reluctor ring on the hubs, also. This make that dana 60 a possibility. But at $2000 it is pricey.

 

[4speedfunk]

Jack away Jake!...axle chat is always cool with me.

Don't feel forced into those just to get 6-lug hubs. You can always buy ordinary 6-lug Dana 60 hubs without going all "stub-hub". This would allow you to use standard spindles & outer shafts, rather than be locked into those pricey proprietary parts. Seems like a lot of money just to get your hubs shorter. It doesn't really make your track width any less. It just keeps you from gankin your shin bones when you walk around your truck! -LOL

Instead, buy a pair of these...put your own ABS rings on them...and use standard D60 parts...

6-luggers

Caliper mounts and ABS sensor mounts are fairly simple pieces to make. ABS rings are not a problem either (I can do that mod if need be). If you got the means to drill/tap your own knuckles...I'm sure you could do the brake conversion. The biggest hassle might be trying to get the H3 rotors mated to the Dana 60 hubs. Not sure whats involved with that but, I'm sure you could come up with sumthin.

 

[jakesz28]

Thanks. I never realized the Dana 60 6 bolt hubs would be that easy to find. I may really have to reconsider this now. I need to get the price from my friend. He wants me to get both front and rear Dana 60's. These will be over kill for this H3 but I won't break them. The good thing about these axles is also the bad thing. They are built with 4.88's and Detroit lockers. So I will need to sell the front locker. I want an air or electric locker up front.

If he won't split them up I will have to look into the rear brakes and the ABS sensors for the rear. My fear with swapping calipers is that they may not have the same braking bias once piston size changes. Having new rear axles made to keep the 6 bolt wheels and same rotors would seem pretty easy.

 

[MaxPF]

Thanks. I never realized the Dana 60 6 bolt hubs would be that easy to find. I may really have to reconsider this now. I need to get the price from my friend. He wants me to get both front and rear Dana 60's. These will be over kill for this H3 but I won't break them. The good thing about these axles is also the bad thing. They are built with 4.88's and Detroit lockers. So I will need to sell the front locker. I want an air or electric locker up front.

If he won't split them up I will have to look into the rear brakes and the ABS sensors for the rear. My fear with swapping calipers is that they may not have the same braking bias once piston size changes. Having new rear axles made to keep the 6 bolt wheels and same rotors would seem pretty easy.

That takes care of 6 lug for the front, but not for the rear. Also, the rear D60 your buddy has may not be one of the desirable ones. For that matter, if the front is an old closed knuckle axle you don't want it either.

Before you plunk down the Benjamins, get the BOM (Bill of Materials) off of both axles. The BOM and date of manufacture are usually stamped into the tube near the center housing, and the BOM will be a 6 digit number, often with an extra hyphenated digit (xxxxxx or xxxxxx-x). The BOM should start with the number "6" as well. Sometimes the BOM is on a metal tag held on by a cover bolt (which tend to get lost over the years), but in all likelyhood you will find it on the tubes. Anyway, get the BOM for both and post them up here. Also get pics if possible. Dana 60's, front and rear, cover a lot of years and apps, and not all are worth having. One good example is the 30 spline rear axles. Another is the closed knuckle front axles. External lockout front 60's are not as desirable as internal lockout 60's (although a hub swap solves that problem). You get the idea...

 

[jakesz28]

OK I will try to get those numbers. It is an open knuckle. He also has a closed knuckle and I told him I did not want that one. I need to see what all he has out there I think he has somerockwells and new Hummer bleedlocks.

On the rear axle if I make that plunge I would just buy some custom axles for the six lug flange then use the Hummer brakes and rotors.

 

[4speedfunk]

In my neck of the woods...Dana 60 rear axles are for Cudas, Road Runners, & Chargers (and the occasional tubbed-out Camaro). All the serious off-roaders run 14-bolt FF rear axles. I'm far from an expert but, there must be a reason for this.

I would be very hesitant to run full-time lockers in either axle, due to the numerous puter-driven systems on the H3. Also, if both axles already come with 8-lug flanges...I would probably just buy new wheels, instead of dropping another thousand to convert to 6-lug. There might be a way to make some adapter brackets to run H3 calipers on the old rotors. Not sure what to do about rear ABS rings...maybe use external ones like the front hubs. I seriously think a gear-swap and chro-mo axles in the stock rear 8.6" is a better choice. Okay...its not exotic and it totally lacks "wow-factor". But...

its lightweight
already got disc brakes
already got an E-locker
already compatible with the ABS
already a 6-lug
has great aftermarket support...4.88s, 5.13s available
seems to do a very good job

Best of all...you already got it! Its too easy and cheap to ignore the lowly 10-bolt, especially if you want all that stuff I just listed. Don't look now but, the Jeep guys are buying up H3 rear axles for the all the same reasons. Most of those guys want 4.56 gears too, so its a simple swap for them. I've seen several Cherokees running H3 rear axles because its stronger (and cheaper) than anything else out there. They run 5-lug adapters on the flanges.

 

[06 H3]

I can't believe guys want the 10 bolt for one reason. C clip axles...I know a lot of people bag on the weakness of a 10 bolt but I have never seen in person or personally have an issue with it but the c clip design can be one to avoid IMO. Atleast with retainers like the 44 has if you happen to break something in a bad spot like off camber on a steep side slope you can drive up to a safe area to replace it. That situation with a c clip axle can be scary if you have the wheel and shaft come out. I love my 10 bolt and have no plans to change it out but I wouldn't buy one and put it in without doing a c clip eliminator kit or just going with a 44.

 

[4speedfunk]

Like I said...replace the stock shafts with aftermarket chro-mo units. You'll have a hard time breaking them...c-clip or not.

 

[jakesz28]

I think rotor thickness would be an issue using h3 calipers on 8 lug rotors. I have seen many axles broken and once the front axle is solid I think the 10 bolt would become the weak spot. Right now I'm planning the front axle upgrade to get rid of two problems. Rack and pinion then aluminum front dif. I don't have a rear locker. If I end up with just a 44 up front the rear 10would bolt would be a close equal in strength. If I end up with a 60 in the front it just goes to say the 10 bolt will be the next part to break.

 

[jakesz28]

I wonder how all the Dana 60 camaro swaps are done with ABS. My camaro was a 3 sensor and I gutted the ABS for manual brakes. My cam was to bid to pull any vacuum.


EDIT http://www.quickperformance.com/YSPABS-010--Dana-60-ABS-exciter-tone-ring_p_6750.html

 

[MaxPF]

OK I will try to get those numbers. It is an open knuckle. He also has a closed knuckle and I told him I did not want that one. I need to see what all he has out there I think he has somerockwells and new Hummer bleedlocks.

On the rear axle if I make that plunge I would just buy some custom axles for the six lug flange then use the Hummer brakes and rotors.

Open knuckle is generally A Good Thing™, but beware that most Dodge 60's used external hub lockouts which are generally less desirable than internal lockouts, mainly due to lack of 35 spline option. 35 spline outers probably won't matter to you, but it is always something to keep in mind. Obviously, if you swap hubs this is a non-issue.

A rear D60 that is paired with a front 60 should be a full floater, which means making it 6 lug would require machining (unless someone makes a 6 lug hub already). Unless it has 35 spline shafts you don't want it.

Frankly, even if it IS 35 spline, you are better off with a late model (01-up) 14 bolt full floater out of a GM gas Silverado. There are 3 reasons for this: Most already have factory disk brakes (possibly all of them after 01), they are brutally strong, and they are generally pretty cheap. There are a couple bonus reasons as well: they have 1410 yokes (I see that as a bonus, anyway ) and most have G80 Gov-locks installed. Yes, the gov-lock has a deserved bad rap in the 10b and 9.5" semi-floating 14b rears due to it's propensity to self-destruct in a spectacular manner, but the 14bff gov-lock is relatively tough. If you didn't have the $$$ to spring for an ARB right away (which is the only selectable locker option for a 14bff), the gov-lock would serve you well until you do.

Which brings me to my final opinion: keep the axles 8 lug. As 4speed pointed out, 8 lug rims are cheaper than converting the 8 lug axles to 6 lug. I mentioned this before, but it bears repeating: H2 rims are common and fairly cheap on the used market. If you don't like H2's, there are plenty of nice, reasonably priced new rims that would do the job. You would need 17" minimum diameter, of course, to clear the brakes. The ONLY reason I would convert 8 lug axles to 6 lug would be if I already had a set of 6 lug Hutchinson beadlocks. Otherwise, no other wheel is special enough to warrant a 6 lug conversion.

 

[MaxPF]

I think rotor thickness would be an issue using h3 calipers on 8 lug rotors.

EDIT: I just looked it up. Stock H3 rotors are 12.4" in diameter and 1.102" (28mm) thick. The thinnest available 8 lug rotor is from a pre-89 Dodge SRW app, which is 1.190" thick. Later Dodge and all Chevy D60 rotors are 1.540" thick. Ford D60 rotors are smaller (12.5"), but thicker (1.250") than the early SRW Dodge rotors.

So, the difference between a new H3 rotor and a new older SRW Dodge D60 rotor is only .088", or about 3/16th of an inch. I would bet the H3 caliper with the pistons fully compressed would fit, even with new pads.

 

[jakesz28]

EDIT: I just looked it up. Stock H3 rotors are 12.4" in diameter and 1.102" (28mm) thick. The thinnest available 8 lug rotor is from a pre-89 Dodge SRW app, which is 1.190" thick. Later Dodge and all Chevy D60 rotors are 1.540" thick. Ford D60 rotors are smaller (12.5"), but thicker (1.250") than the early SRW Dodge rotors.

So, the difference between a new H3 rotor and a new older SRW Dodge D60 rotor is only .088", or about 3/16th of an inch. I would bet the H3 caliper with the pistons fully compressed would fit, even with new pads.

What are the chances that you have the specs on the rear rotors for the h3? If I can find a rotor with the correct thickness to reuse the rear calipers, then new rims may be the way to go. I just bought new tires so I would hate the idea of going to 17" rims. If I could run 16" rims then I can keep my tires and not take a wash there. I would have to look into the newer 14 bolt rear ends. I bet they would come with ABS sensors and tone rings? Would they be the 55 tooth rings? This would probably end up being over kill for me. It would be nice to just do one end at a time. The rear would need a spring over to match the front lift.

 

[MaxPF]

What are the chances that you have the specs on the rear rotors for the h3? If I can find a rotor with the correct thickness to reuse the rear calipers, then new rims may be the way to go.

Rear H3 rotors are 12.28" (312mm) in diameter and .472" (12mm) thick, and are solid (no vent slots). The newer 14bff rotors are 13" in diameter and 1.140" thick, and are vented. I see no reason to swap H3 brakes onto one ton axles, since it is a BIG downgrade in braking capability. The H3 rear calipers are small single piston, while the 14b calipers are big dual piston. In fact, they would be good for front use as well - GM has a slightly different caliper designed for front use on 7200lb GVW trucks that uses the same pad as the 14b rear. These pads are quite a bit bigger than the stock H3 front pads!

I know you are worried about bias between the front and rear, but ABS helps take care of that. The bigger issue is whether the stock H3 master cylinder has enough fluid volume. That is simply a "try and see" and if not, find a bigger MC.

I just bought new tires so I would hate the idea of going to 17" rims. If I could run 16" rims then I can keep my tires and not take a wash there.

You would need to see if 16" wheels clear the brakes on the one ton axles. I think they do, but I'm not 100% positive on that.

I would have to look into the newer 14 bolt rear ends. I bet they would come with ABS sensors and tone rings? Would they be the 55 tooth rings? This would probably end up being over kill for me. It would be nice to just do one end at a time. The rear would need a spring over to match the front lift.

No wheel speed sensors on the truck rear ends. They have ABS, but they use the VSS output to determine rear brake lockup. Separate wheel sensors are really for traction control, which the trucks do not have.

 

[jakesz28]

Well its done I'm buying the Dana 60 front axle with 4.88's and he is keeping the Detroit locker. Its out of a 78 dodge. $500

 

[MaxPF]

Cool :thumbs: I highly recommend a complete rebuild on an axle that old. When I say complete, I mean stripping it down to a bare housing and knuckles, cleaning, repainting, and replacing anything that seems worn or questionable. Look carefully at the bearings, to make sure they don't have rust damage from water in the oil. Unless they have already been replaced, the knuckle kingpin components are probably due to be replaced - nobody EVER services them with the proper frequency, and they are usually in pretty bad shape.

If the upper kingpin itself has no discernible wear, it doesn't not need to be replaced. If it DOES have wear, then it needs to be replaced. Removing them is a stone bitch unless you know the tricks, and proper torquing after installation is absolutely necessary or you will risk it loosening in service and wiping out the inner C. When I say "proper torquing", I mean to spec, which is 600 ft-lbs! No, that is not a typo. If they need to be replaced, post up on here and I will give you the run down

 

[jakesz28]

Yep I plan to go thru the hole axle. The good thing is it was last in a mud truck a few years ago. This guy was good about washing after the races and lubing everything. It has been in a barn since he parted that truck out. After some research it appears that dodge runs the same taper tie rods as the Chevy's. I like that the tie rod is a little higher. I did not ask about the rear Dana 60, but I think I will. If I get that I know its not as strong as the 14 bolt but it does offer a little more ground clearance. If I get that I'm going to run the Detroit locker and look at getting new rims. If I just do the front for now I will run the 6 on 5.5 hub. This would get rid of the external hub and open up look out options. Right now it is full time without lock outs. He offered to give me a open did for it but all of his open difs are for 4.10's. I'm looking at options for the front locker, air or electric. I will most likely start with stock axles and upgrade them down the road.
I wish I could have ripped up the field some yesterday. That barn is out in the middle of nowhere. I had to pull a 3/4 ton ford diesel out because he couldn't get back there.
I will pick it up after I get back from Moab.