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Low Buck H3 SAS - touchdown!
- Thread starter 4speedfunk
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cgalpha08
"Like Nothing Else"
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Wow!! Truly looks bad ass!!!!
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06 H3
a.k.a. "The Jackal"
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Looks awesome!
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bebe
Moderator
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- Dayton, NV
Did you hack the Front Spring hangers off?
Can I get a better shot of your rear pinion angle? (I just want to see how it compares to mine)
Can you also measure from the ground to the top of your rock slider?
Thanks!
Can I get a better shot of your rear pinion angle? (I just want to see how it compares to mine)
Can you also measure from the ground to the top of your rock slider?
Thanks!
ReconH3
Guardian Angel
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- Raleigh, NC
Definitely want to see it ramped. You'll end up doing it so many times to check different clearances.
"Ex Umbris Venimus"
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08SolarFlareH3
Super Swampers
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- Finger Lakes, NY
Coming along great CJ! Can't wait to see it sometime.
4speedfunk
Well-Known Member
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- Tardville
Bebe...
FRONT HANGERS?...YES, they got chopped.
PINION ANGLE?...approx 16 degrees. I used a cheapo Harbor-Freight magnetic angle finder to arrive at that. It works best when stuck on the flat part of the U-joint saddle (with the driveshaft out). But, since I have my driveshaft hooked-up I could only get a shot of it on the shaft itself. I'm in the garage today, so I gotta use a flash...I'll get a better shot the next time I'm outside. I'm still using the stock rear driveshaft, and although it now has another 1" of shiney yoke exposed...its seems as smooth as ever. I've got zero vibes up to 65 mph or so (speedo is off). I'm going to drive up to Patterson driveline (10 miles away) and let my shaft guru gimmie his opinion on both of em. They may need to be lengthened or get a CV-joint put on the rear, like yours.
View attachment 5300View attachment 5301
ROCK RAILS?...I got 25.75" from floor to top of tube (on forward end) and 26.25" (on the aft end)....GM rails. I got about 1" clear from the top of the roof lights to the header on my garage door. Not sure 37"s will fit in the garage!
Recon...
RTI RAMP?... I think I will score fairly poor on the ramp, when compared to other rigs that were specifically built to flex. Despite the hard-core appearance...flex and travel were not my main objectives, and I'll basically take whatever I can get. I thought this truck was a pretty impressive off-roader with the Rancho lift and stock IFS and frankly...I'm not after any more capability than that. I just wanted it to be geared properly, and NOT BREAK so damn much! I'll have 2"-4" of up travel and probably 6"-8" of droop. That's not much in the off-road world but, its plenty for what I'm after. I'm running 10-inch travel Fox shocks up front...fairly mild for a build like this. Not sure if I'll run limit straps or not. The suspension is not stiff...its quite soft and flexy but, it doesn't have the total travel of a coil-over rig.
The front coil buckets can be raised or lowered and right now...I'm sitting on the very bottom end of what I feel is safe. Any lower, and I would be concerned about smacking the oil pan or binding the steering. The drag-link and track-bar are nearly flat right now, and there is tons of room to go higher. You could easily get another 4" of lift but, I think that creates all sorts of practicality issues.
FRONT HANGERS?...YES, they got chopped.
PINION ANGLE?...approx 16 degrees. I used a cheapo Harbor-Freight magnetic angle finder to arrive at that. It works best when stuck on the flat part of the U-joint saddle (with the driveshaft out). But, since I have my driveshaft hooked-up I could only get a shot of it on the shaft itself. I'm in the garage today, so I gotta use a flash...I'll get a better shot the next time I'm outside. I'm still using the stock rear driveshaft, and although it now has another 1" of shiney yoke exposed...its seems as smooth as ever. I've got zero vibes up to 65 mph or so (speedo is off). I'm going to drive up to Patterson driveline (10 miles away) and let my shaft guru gimmie his opinion on both of em. They may need to be lengthened or get a CV-joint put on the rear, like yours.
View attachment 5300View attachment 5301
ROCK RAILS?...I got 25.75" from floor to top of tube (on forward end) and 26.25" (on the aft end)....GM rails. I got about 1" clear from the top of the roof lights to the header on my garage door. Not sure 37"s will fit in the garage!
Recon...
RTI RAMP?... I think I will score fairly poor on the ramp, when compared to other rigs that were specifically built to flex. Despite the hard-core appearance...flex and travel were not my main objectives, and I'll basically take whatever I can get. I thought this truck was a pretty impressive off-roader with the Rancho lift and stock IFS and frankly...I'm not after any more capability than that. I just wanted it to be geared properly, and NOT BREAK so damn much! I'll have 2"-4" of up travel and probably 6"-8" of droop. That's not much in the off-road world but, its plenty for what I'm after. I'm running 10-inch travel Fox shocks up front...fairly mild for a build like this. Not sure if I'll run limit straps or not. The suspension is not stiff...its quite soft and flexy but, it doesn't have the total travel of a coil-over rig.
The front coil buckets can be raised or lowered and right now...I'm sitting on the very bottom end of what I feel is safe. Any lower, and I would be concerned about smacking the oil pan or binding the steering. The drag-link and track-bar are nearly flat right now, and there is tons of room to go higher. You could easily get another 4" of lift but, I think that creates all sorts of practicality issues.
bebe
Moderator
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- Dayton, NV
Hangers
Oh good - I'm glad you got rid of them - feels good right?
Pinion Angle - yup mine felt great at first, then we started feeling a little chatter at acceleration 1/2 a seconds worth, so decided to change it. We set it at 15* and then shimmed it down to 13* with a 2 degree shim.
Rock Rails - I think I am at just a hair over 29" with the 38's - so that sounds about right.
Looks awesome!!! Lets wheel!
4speedfunk
Well-Known Member
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- Tardville
Yeah that shim idea had crossed my mine. I have drag-raced for years, and in that situation you typically point the pumpkin a few degrees downward, so that under hard acceleration, the rear suspension deflects...the tail squats...and the nose of the diff comes into alignment with the driveshaft. I suppose the same thing occurs on a 4wd, so a couple degrees of pre-load is probably a good idea. After the new add-a-leafs, my stock U-bolts are not long enough. So when I replace those, I will throw some degree shims in at the same time. I've not noticed any axle-wrap or ride quality issues from the SOA.
I'm on the fence on the front hangers. I cut em off simply to loose 2" of lift. True...they seemed a bit bulky but, I don't wheel in the same terrain you do out west and they never really gave me much problems (other than just appearance). 07Custom is considering a SOA, and I told him to try it first with the stock hangers. He's got a solid axle up front, and leaving those hangers in place just might be what he needs to get his rig sitting correctly. The SOA mod would go much faster if you left em in place. You can always go back and chop em if you were still sitting too high.
Love to get together sometime. Maybe next April at Moab? Recon and I could caravan cross-country from the east, and meet you and 07Custom. It would be nice to see four heavily-modded rigs in one place...especially since all of em are totally different takes on the same basic idea. I bagged on riding shot-gun with Trailbreaker last year...stupid decision. Looks awesome out there.
I'm on the fence on the front hangers. I cut em off simply to loose 2" of lift. True...they seemed a bit bulky but, I don't wheel in the same terrain you do out west and they never really gave me much problems (other than just appearance). 07Custom is considering a SOA, and I told him to try it first with the stock hangers. He's got a solid axle up front, and leaving those hangers in place just might be what he needs to get his rig sitting correctly. The SOA mod would go much faster if you left em in place. You can always go back and chop em if you were still sitting too high.
Love to get together sometime. Maybe next April at Moab? Recon and I could caravan cross-country from the east, and meet you and 07Custom. It would be nice to see four heavily-modded rigs in one place...especially since all of em are totally different takes on the same basic idea. I bagged on riding shot-gun with Trailbreaker last year...stupid decision. Looks awesome out there.
HUMMER INVESTMENTS
[o O IIIIIIII O o]
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:corn:
MaxPF
AGNTSA
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One suggestion: as you rotate the pinion up, it drops the level of the oil fill hole in relation to the tubes. The oil level needs to be high enough that oil is constantly being flushed into the tubes to lube the outer wheel bearings. I would suggest flipping the cover over, which will put the fill port higher. This will let you fill the diff enough to ensure lube in the tubes, and the elevated pinion bearings. Don't fill completely to the port though - fill to about 1/4" above the bottom of the tubes. Use your calibrated finger in the hole to determine the proper level
How good does it feel on the road compared to the rancho lift or a stock one on 35's. I would love to skip some of the mods that get replaced and jump right to a solid axle. But some of my old trucks just weren't set up right and I want this to go down the road nice.
4speedfunk
Well-Known Member
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- Tardville
It feels "different". Obviously the steering is the biggest difference...going from R&P to Box&Pitman. I want to continue to play around with the steering system to get a little less sensitivity at high speeds, and more turning power at low speeds. Right now I have no sway bars but, its extremely drivable without them...it doesn't feel tippy or exhibit any weird handling issues. That being said...I wouldn't want to whip it quickly at 70mph! There seems to be a very slight left-to-right weight transfer that occurs at highway speeds...almost like its induced by my hands at the wheel. It doesn't feel like its in the steering...but rather in the springs (I think this may be due to the lack of sway bars).
The extra ride height takes awhile to get use to...especially getting in and out. The spring rate and ride quality is very good...comparable to stock, if not a tad better. The Bronco coils seem to be a perfect match for the H3's nose weight. Its firm but not harsh, and I can't say enough good things about the Fox shocks up front. Both the stock IFS and the Rancho IFS had some fairly drastic "rise" and "dive" issues that I never could get used to. It was always very noticable at night, when my headlights would point way up on take-off. Well...all that quirky stuff is gone now. It feels very stable under both braking and acceleration...very flat (like a full-size truck). Turning radius is very good...possibly the same as stock (I haven't compared it with a stock H3). Probably the biggest plus of the whole project is the gearing. The truck just feels "right" with 5.13s and 35"s. I have power again, and the truck pulls 70mph without hunting between 3rd and 4th. It does, however, look goofy with such small tires!
I'm actually stunned at how well the whole thing works right out of the box. I was expecting way more problems, and way more screwin around to get to this level of drivability.
The extra ride height takes awhile to get use to...especially getting in and out. The spring rate and ride quality is very good...comparable to stock, if not a tad better. The Bronco coils seem to be a perfect match for the H3's nose weight. Its firm but not harsh, and I can't say enough good things about the Fox shocks up front. Both the stock IFS and the Rancho IFS had some fairly drastic "rise" and "dive" issues that I never could get used to. It was always very noticable at night, when my headlights would point way up on take-off. Well...all that quirky stuff is gone now. It feels very stable under both braking and acceleration...very flat (like a full-size truck). Turning radius is very good...possibly the same as stock (I haven't compared it with a stock H3). Probably the biggest plus of the whole project is the gearing. The truck just feels "right" with 5.13s and 35"s. I have power again, and the truck pulls 70mph without hunting between 3rd and 4th. It does, however, look goofy with such small tires!
I'm actually stunned at how well the whole thing works right out of the box. I was expecting way more problems, and way more screwin around to get to this level of drivability.
06 H3
a.k.a. "The Jackal"
- Messages
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- Meridian, ID
Glad to hear its all working out great CJ! I can agree with the rise and dive of the H3 under braking and acceleration. Hope to see it in the future
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05Mudiak
Well-Known Member
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OK so how much $$ to do this if I drop my ours off at your place:thumbs:
MaxPF
AGNTSA
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What is your Pitman to steering arm length ratio, and how much travel does your box have left when the knuckles are on the stops? The reason I ask is that a shorter Pitman arm or longer steer arm will slow the steering (make it less sensitive) and give more assist.
4speedfunk
Well-Known Member
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- Tardville
I'm using a stock Nissan pitman arm, bored for a 1-ton DLE...its 5-1/4" long c-to-c. I'm using a single steering arm on the passenger side for the DL...7" from the ball-joint to the hole. I have my stops set fairly high to keep the 35" tires away from the lower link bars. Even so...I get a full-3.7 turns stop to stop, and the truck turns much tighter than I thought it would. I estimate probably another 4 to 5 degrees of run-out left on the box in either direction...so I'm pretty content with what I have. I wish I had the physical space to play around with steering geometry but, unfortunately...what I got now, is all I have room for! I cannot go any shorter on the steering arm due to the location of the track bar. I might be able to go another 1/2" longer on the pitman if I could find an application that would work.
My original plan of using high-steer with a two-hole arm (separate DL and TR links) was not possible due to the tight fore/aft spacing. So, I switched to Plan-B, using high-steer with a one-hole arm and a Y-link...and that too was not possible because the arc of the pitman arm was crossing over the TR, and it would surely have binding issues. So plan-C is what I ended-up with...stock low-steer tie-rod mounts and a single PS one-hole arm for the DL. This arrangemet "stacks" the TR and DL vertically and makes things more compact (fore/aft speaking). Currently the DL is sitting directly above the tie-rod, and the box is as far forward as I could get it. I've got about 3" between the bottom of the pitman arm (at the sector shaft) and the top of the tie-rod...so my "UP" travel is pretty much determined by this and limited to 3" or so. Here's a pic showing this...
View attachment 5385
I plan to get another pitman arm and ream it the other direction to place the DRE on top of it. This will gain me another inch or so. In a perfect world...I would've liked to have the tie-rod completely behind the arc of the pitman arm. This would allow the TR vertically pass behind the DL under full-compression. But...I don't have that luxury. Its sort of a moot point because I don't have the space for the axle to travel any higher up than this anyway (oil-pan & upper link clearance). So, I really don't mind the TR/DL sharing the same vertical space and I will set my bumpstops to avoid any contact between the two. I really don't know what I can do to make it any better. As I said...the truck steers pretty good now, and I'm nit-picking it from here on. I have never done any steering fab before, so this is my first stab at it. As always...open for suggestions. Most Jeep guys I know are content with their steering once it reaches the "Wheel Horse Lawn Tractor" level, so I sort of feel I'm out here alone obscessing over it -LOL.
My original plan of using high-steer with a two-hole arm (separate DL and TR links) was not possible due to the tight fore/aft spacing. So, I switched to Plan-B, using high-steer with a one-hole arm and a Y-link...and that too was not possible because the arc of the pitman arm was crossing over the TR, and it would surely have binding issues. So plan-C is what I ended-up with...stock low-steer tie-rod mounts and a single PS one-hole arm for the DL. This arrangemet "stacks" the TR and DL vertically and makes things more compact (fore/aft speaking). Currently the DL is sitting directly above the tie-rod, and the box is as far forward as I could get it. I've got about 3" between the bottom of the pitman arm (at the sector shaft) and the top of the tie-rod...so my "UP" travel is pretty much determined by this and limited to 3" or so. Here's a pic showing this...
View attachment 5385
I plan to get another pitman arm and ream it the other direction to place the DRE on top of it. This will gain me another inch or so. In a perfect world...I would've liked to have the tie-rod completely behind the arc of the pitman arm. This would allow the TR vertically pass behind the DL under full-compression. But...I don't have that luxury. Its sort of a moot point because I don't have the space for the axle to travel any higher up than this anyway (oil-pan & upper link clearance). So, I really don't mind the TR/DL sharing the same vertical space and I will set my bumpstops to avoid any contact between the two. I really don't know what I can do to make it any better. As I said...the truck steers pretty good now, and I'm nit-picking it from here on. I have never done any steering fab before, so this is my first stab at it. As always...open for suggestions. Most Jeep guys I know are content with their steering once it reaches the "Wheel Horse Lawn Tractor" level, so I sort of feel I'm out here alone obscessing over it -LOL.
ReconH3
Guardian Angel
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- Raleigh, NC
Mine is pretty much the same, so I would say you did an amazing job for being a first timer. Once you set the toe right, you'll feel the truck is more stable on the road. If you add the ram assist it will feel rock solid.
"Ex Umbris Venimus"
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"Ex Umbris Venimus"
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4speedfunk
Well-Known Member
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- Tardville
Thanks Recon. I'de be lyin if I said I didn't refer to your rig once or twice. Agree...I think a ram would help the effort at slow speeds, and if I'm not mistaken...its inherently a "stabilzer" too, correct?
ReconH3
Guardian Angel
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Correct. That's why I suggested it. I first didn't have it. As soon as I got it, it made a huge difference in stability. Remember I had a ton of help from some very knowledgeable people. What you have done takes a lot more courage and deserves recognition.
"Ex Umbris Venimus"
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"Ex Umbris Venimus"
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4speedfunk
Well-Known Member
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Thanks man. You & Bebe are the twin rocket boosters that got me going...much thanks to you both.
I am not a spring chicken. I've been around muscle cars, steel, and fabricating for a very long time...but its always been on the "nerdy white-collar side" of the business. My mods have always been "bolt-on" type stuff. When I looked at what it took to do a project like this...I knew it would be long-term. I got a nice, well-lit, two-car garage space to work in and a steady stream of THORparts money coming in the door...so I went for it! More than once, I thought I had made a huge mistake. But, be patient and don't panic. I could not have done this project without the input of H40, Pirate, and a few other websites.
Funds. I estimate this can be done for $3000-$8000 in parts. That's a huge range but, the swap cost has a lot to do with the axle itself. If you purchased a bumper from me...there is a little piece of you in this truck! Thanks to you THORparts customers, I was able to buy some new tools over the course of this build, and they have more than paid for themselves already. If you are reading this and considering a SAS...save up some money for a plasma-cutter and a welder. Technology has made these two pieces so awesome and affordable, I want to kick myself for not getting them sooner! The only other thing you need is a second vehicle to drive. If you could bypass all of the experimentation that I went through, and collect the right parts ahead of time...most guys could do this in about a month of nights and weekends.
Don't be scared. Its only a machine.
I am not a spring chicken. I've been around muscle cars, steel, and fabricating for a very long time...but its always been on the "nerdy white-collar side" of the business. My mods have always been "bolt-on" type stuff. When I looked at what it took to do a project like this...I knew it would be long-term. I got a nice, well-lit, two-car garage space to work in and a steady stream of THORparts money coming in the door...so I went for it! More than once, I thought I had made a huge mistake. But, be patient and don't panic. I could not have done this project without the input of H40, Pirate, and a few other websites.
Funds. I estimate this can be done for $3000-$8000 in parts. That's a huge range but, the swap cost has a lot to do with the axle itself. If you purchased a bumper from me...there is a little piece of you in this truck! Thanks to you THORparts customers, I was able to buy some new tools over the course of this build, and they have more than paid for themselves already. If you are reading this and considering a SAS...save up some money for a plasma-cutter and a welder. Technology has made these two pieces so awesome and affordable, I want to kick myself for not getting them sooner! The only other thing you need is a second vehicle to drive. If you could bypass all of the experimentation that I went through, and collect the right parts ahead of time...most guys could do this in about a month of nights and weekends.
Don't be scared. Its only a machine.
MaxPF
AGNTSA
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If anything you would want to go SHORTER, not longer, on the Pitman arm. A longer Pitman arm will increase steering speed/sensitivity and decrease assist.
bebe
Moderator
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- Dayton, NV
CJ, how would you like to come out to Arizona and spend a month out here this winter and help me transform my T? I'm serious!
I'm not making this post to pump up speedy, but I've heard these guys doing an SAS on Toyota's in a weekend. If you do them enough and fully know how to repeat the correct geometry, have all the parts collected, it's not a long term project.
Recon and I had Long term projects because they were one off creations more or less, but an SAS and SOA are really easier that you think. Mostly because they have been done over, and over, and over on Toyota's.
CJ was doing it himself, and very well I might add, but again, it was somewhat of a one off as well with the steering set up. There is a little bit of experiment in every build. There is nothing to be afraid of - once you are out of warranty
You can do it!!! MOD ON!!!