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Chopping a 10-bolt for IFS...

MaxPF

AGNTSA
Messages
1,394
Location
The dark side of the globe
I know that first cut is scary. it was for the spring over, I cant imagine doing the front...Max, going off of the ifs topic and onto leaf springs what's your take on springs going Into negative arch? I see your springs are pretty flat like mine. Great down travel! I can net 12 but shocks limit me to 10. I'd rather have nothing hanging below the axle so ill take 10 instead of 12...leaf springs are great at flexing. I just wanna know if I should bump it before negative arch

Negative arch is largely misunderstood. Whether it is detrimental depends on the construction of the spring and how much unloaded arch it has. Every spring has a maximum amount of compression it can tolerate without yielding (permanent deformation). Some springs, such as the stock height springs on my K5, are negative arch when sitting at normal ride height and can arch further negative during normal suspension travel. The springs I currently have are 2-1/2" lift, which as you noticed sit pretty much flat at static ride height. These springs can negative arch 5-6 inches without any damage to the spring. OTOH, my stock height rear springs have much more static positive arch, and it is unlikely they can tolerate much negative arch. It is a matter of overall travel, really. This is why I left the overloads in place on the rears, to limit upward travel.

So, my simple answer to your question is: I don't know. I don't have enough knowledge of your springs to determine how much compression travel they can safely take. The safest bet is to limit up-travel to stock. If you know someone with a stock H3, measure the amount of distance between theor bump stops and the mating pads on the axle, and use that as your guide.

As for ifs, I do all types of terrain, high speed low speed, crawling, mud etc. it's done fine but if I do a SA would type of suspension would you recommend? I know leaf spring would probably suck up front for higher speed. They do well in the rear for high speed though. A lot of prerunners use them...

Most high speed off-road rigs use coils all around. Leaf springs have the advantage of being inexpensive: they eliminate the need for locating links (although Panhard rods and traction control bars are often added), they are generally rugged, and simple to set up. They have the disadvantage of having a lot of internal friction and more effective un-sprung weight, both of which are negatives for ride and handling. For an H3 SAS I would run coils, and use a 3-link+panhard or a 4-link+Panhard. You could use twin trailing arms like many SA pickups, but they don't work as well for large amounts of suspension travel.

It seems most everybody is flexy-this and flexy-that but, I don't subscribe to the "more flex is better" rule of thumb

Excessive flex inevitably compromises vehicle stability due to the excessive compliance needed. The only time this can be overcome is to use a sway bar, but the bar then limits flex. I think 10-12" of travel is perfectly adequate for the part-time wheeler.

Now that I've logged five thousand miles on the SA, I feel pretty good about the it. It rides firm and handles well on the road. Off-road its downright STUPID capable. In fact...its way more awesome than I really anticipated back when I started it. Even sticking to the mild-end of the SAS spectrum...it came out way better than I ever thought (or wanted). I still got some changes and adjustments to make but, I'm slowly getting the bugs worked out. Here's a pic from just yesterday at a jobsite...

View attachment 8121

I drove 1-1/2 hours to get there, thru the remnants of a blizzard. I can honestly say there is no other vehicle I'de rather be driving in such conditions. The red H3 pulled in right after me, and the guy seemed to be completely aloof to fact that we had the same vehicles. I said "Nice Truck" and he sort of nodded and walked away...having no clue that I had done anything to mine. I'm still amazed at the number of people driving around H3's that have no idea what a unique and different machine it is from anything else. Jeez.

BTW...I accidentally found another SA H3 on Youtube the other day. This is #5 that I'm aware of, and you can clearly see how solid axles and high-speeds don't work too good together. I have no idea who built it but, it may be another ORE rig (Pro-rock60 & Fox COs)...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZ2F58RpAG8

I take it when you say "you can clearly see how solid axles and high-speeds don't work too good together" that you are being sarcastic? That rig looked to be soaking up the bumps quite well. I should point out that a 10b or D44 is better than a D60 when it comes to high speed, simply due to the fact that it is less massive. Less unsprung weight is ALWAYS better for high speed operation.

I do think IFS has an advantage in high-speed off-road situations, but it needs to have a lot of travel (read: expensive). It you are hitting the bumps on every hole or whoop, you'd be much better off with a SAS with decent travel. At low speed where articulation is needed, SA's clearly keep more of the tire's contact patch where it needs to be. This is not so much due to suspension travel but more to the way in which solid axles articulate. In traversing terrain the SA "walks" the terrain, and as the axle articulates it does a better overall job of keeping the tire's tread parallel to the surface beneath. As with so many things, it's a tradeoff.

I think we're gonna see more SA H3s in the near future. I already got all the parts stock-piled for my next one (including MaxPF's knuckles!)

I take it you got the iShip notification on those?
 
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4speedfunk

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,250
Location
Tardville
I'm not sure I would try a high-speed run over whoops like that black one...I'm afraid of getting bounced upside down! I think it would hold together fine but, my concern would be bump stops and/or bottoming out...or taking a hard hit on one side and causing an uncontrolled rebound in the opposite direction. I've never launched it (gotten airborne), and its got a pretty high COG to be doing high-speed runs over terrain like that, especially without sway-bars. I'm running Fox reservoir shocks and I'm sure they can be specifically tuned for that kind of performance but, that's a bit over my head. I chose old school (comparatively speaking) coil/shock/3-link system rather than coil-overs, so playing with spring rates and such is a tad more cumbersome than just breaking out a spanner wrench. Here in the midwest...we simply don't have that type of terrain. The emphasis is more on hill climbing, creek forging, and avoiding trees. I've never been offroad at more than 50mph or so...there just isn't enough flat, open areas to get up to that kind of speed! I wonder how hard of a hit, it takes to deploy an airbag?

No I wasn't being sarcastic. I think the set-up on that black one (in the video) is marginal...looks way too stiff to me. I'll be the first to admit, I have zero desert experience other than watching the Baja 1000 on TV...but, I see alot of IFS rigs doing that same pass with only the wheels bouncing....and not the entire truck. My solid axle has very little room for uptravel, and it appears this black one is the same way. Absorbing large bumps at high-speed was not really something I was hoping to achieve. I have plenty of adjustment room to raise my ride-height to get more uptravel...but, I'm trying to keep the truck low. The only way to do that is to limit the uptravel to 3"-4" or so. I might go even less on the next SAS. Around here, its all about low-speed, lots of droop, and big tires!

Yes I got the Iship...thanks.

Geno...KM2 are awesome. This is my third set, and I have nothing but good to say about them. Oh wait. Check that. They could be cheaper! I paid $1640.42 for four 37x12.50R17s at the 4wheelparts tent here in Indy last September. Thats a cash & carry price...and included a BFG instant rebate. Don't expect to find the same deal online. The price skyrockets if you get into 18s or 20s. Forget running 37"s with a 5-cylinder unless you re-gear.
 
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06 H3

a.k.a. "The Jackal"
Messages
9,499
Location
Meridian, ID
I got some info on that rig. It was done by Dixie4wd check out their Facebook page no h3 pics on their website. It's the alpha. It has custom springs or sits really tall because they kept the stock monstrous spring hangers in the rear
 

MaxPF

AGNTSA
Messages
1,394
Location
The dark side of the globe
I'm not sure I would try a high-speed run over whoops like that black one...I'm afraid of getting bounced upside down! I think it would hold together fine but, my concern would be bump stops and/or bottoming out...or taking a hard hit on one side and causing an uncontrolled rebound in the opposite direction. I've never launched it (gotten airborne), and its got a pretty high COG to be doing high-speed runs over terrain like that, especially without sway-bars. I'm running Fox reservoir shocks and I'm sure they can be specifically tuned for that kind of performance but, that's a bit over my head. I chose old school (comparatively speaking) coil/shock/3-link system rather than coil-overs, so playing with spring rates and such is a tad more cumbersome than just breaking out a spanner wrench.

All the spanner wrench adjusts is ride height. Changing the spring rate on a coil-over still requires changing the spring.

Here in the midwest...we simply don't have that type of terrain. The emphasis is more on hill climbing, creek forging, and avoiding trees. I've never been offroad at more than 50mph or so...there just isn't enough flat, open areas to get up to that kind of speed! I wonder how hard of a hit, it takes to deploy an airbag?

No I wasn't being sarcastic. I think the set-up on that black one (in the video) is marginal...looks way too stiff to me. I'll be the first to admit, I have zero desert experience other than watching the Baja 1000 on TV...but, I see alot of IFS rigs doing that same pass with only the wheels bouncing....and not the entire truck.

Well, to be fair those IFS rigs have a LOT of suspension travel and very compliant springs. I thought that it was doing pretty well for a SA rig with limited travel...

My solid axle has very little room for uptravel, and it appears this black one is the same way. Absorbing large bumps at high-speed was not really something I was hoping to achieve. I have plenty of adjustment room to raise my ride-height to get more uptravel...but, I'm trying to keep the truck low. The only way to do that is to limit the uptravel to 3"-4" or so. I might go even less on the next SAS. Around here, its all about low-speed, lots of droop, and big tires!

Same with my truck. I have maybe 5-6" of uptravel, probably less. I chose to retain the 2-1/2" lift springs, which limits how much uptravel before axle and frame get cozy.

Yes I got the Iship...thanks.

Cool. I have never asked anyone if they actually got the notifications :)

Geno...KM2 are awesome. This is my third set, and I have nothing but good to say about them. Oh wait. Check that. They could be cheaper! I paid $1640.42 for four 37x12.50R17s at the 4wheelparts tent here in Indy last September. Thats a cash & carry price...and included a BFG instant rebate. Don't expect to find the same deal online. The price skyrockets if you get into 18s or 20s. Forget running 37"s with a 5-cylinder unless you re-gear.

I may stick with 35's simply due to the out-of-control costs of 37's. We'll see when the time comes...
 

4speedfunk

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,250
Location
Tardville
I thought that it was doing pretty well for a SA rig with limited travel...

Exactly. "for a SA rig with limited travel" is a big disclaimer for high-speed wheeling. That's where the IFS really shines.

I could do that same run but, I would be bouncing all over the place...probably worse than that guy. I don't mind bottoming-out but, I like to do it at 2 mph in a very soft, squishy, and predictable fashion. My front bumps are actually the rears off the stock H3 suspension, and they're pretty soft. I shudder to think what would happen if I came down off a 3-foot jump at 80 mph. If I survived at all...I'de be pooping blood for a week!

:no:
 

atvspeed4

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,211
Location
massachusetts
Okay back on topic! I picked up another 10 bolt today, I cut the short side down and also turned a race that contains a bearing and seal to be pressed in. Now I have to wait to find the time to have my h3 taken apart for three days while I test fit and try to work on mounts
 

atvspeed4

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,211
Location
massachusetts
Ended up going with a rear casting, an 8.5 instead of an 8.6 as I had easy access to a cheap one to build a prototype. As for the difference in strength my driveline shop said it will not be a problem. The more I speak to people who are informed about the 8.5 vs the 8.6 debate the less I am concerned. There are several 9 second cars that are running 8.5s and are not complaining about their carrier bearings being a little smaller.
 
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