10bolt front diff tech

[06 H3]

.25inches.

1 5/16"in

that looks like where the seal meets as you can kinda see the worn indentation there
1/2in

4.25 in total

 

[4speedfunk]

Perfect! Thank-you so much. I'm gonna take these to the shop tomorrow and have a brain-storming session. From your last photo, it looks like the sweet spot I'm looking for is: 3-1/2" from the snap ring groove to the seal. I can measure the location of the snap ring groove inside the AAM-7's carrier, and transpose that to the 10-bolt carrier. That will give me an exact reference point. Then I just gotta try and get the seal installed 3-1/2" outboard of that groove....should be good.

It looks like the splines are 1-3/4" long, which is also good info. I will reference the AAM-7 again and see how much of these splines actually plug into the carrier. Ideally...I want to match that, as the strength will surely decrease as less splines are in contact.

The problem is that the 10-bolt has a lot of extra "meat" outboard of the carrier saddles. I've shaved away at least 4", (most of which was the leaf-spring pad)...but, now I'm concerned that I'm getting into the "no-fly" zone and I don't want to compromise the the area that supports the carrier. This info is great, and we'll see where it takes us tomorrow.

 

[06 H3]

alright sweet. If you need anything else let me know. Ill jump through fire if necessary just to get this damn thought into a product lol

 

[MTUH3]

Great job. This is really cool

 

[rsc]

Perfect! Thank-you so much. I'm gonna take these to the shop tomorrow and have a brain-storming session. From your last photo, it looks like the sweet spot I'm looking for is: 3-1/2" from the snap ring groove to the seal. I can measure the location of the snap ring groove inside the AAM-7's carrier, and transpose that to the 10-bolt carrier. That will give me an exact reference point. Then I just gotta try and get the seal installed 3-1/2" outboard of that groove....should be good.

It looks like the splines are 1-3/4" long, which is also good info. I will reference the AAM-7 again and see how much of these splines actually plug into the carrier. Ideally...I want to match that, as the strength will surely decrease as less splines are in contact.

The problem is that the 10-bolt has a lot of extra "meat" outboard of the carrier saddles. I've shaved away at least 4", (most of which was the leaf-spring pad)...but, now I'm concerned that I'm getting into the "no-fly" zone and I don't want to compromise the the area that supports the carrier. This info is great, and we'll see where it takes us tomorrow.

I'm glad this is working out! But it's gonna make me have to raid the piggy bank or get some OT going again to get this in my truck. Thanks for doing the hard work over there!:thumbs:

 

[mudbug]

Thanks CJ for going the extra mile for us IFS guys. I'm watching every post :fxd:

 

[4speedfunk]

ARRRGGH!...Today was a one of those revelation days. The revelation was that Blackbear's axle might actually be a "jack-a-lope". I say this because I have found out that there is no flippin way a stock H3 half-shaft can even reach the carrier as shown in this photo...



True...this is an H3 half-shaft. True...this is a 10-bolt housing. That's where the truth ends. The end of the CV is plugged into the housing...but it ain't plugged into the carrier! The male shaft on the end of the CV is only 4" long. Its AT LEAST 5.5" from the seal to the carrier....so one of three things is going on here. (1) He has found an inboard CV joint with a longer shaft. (2) He has installed a coupler and an extension between the shaft and the carrier. (3) He is bull$hitting us.

All is not lost on this. I still got a couple tricks up my sleeve, and I might be able to pull a rabbit out...but, its going to take some more head-scratching. I have brought this project back to my home shop for a more detailed analysis. I have a couple ideas how to salvage this but none of them are very compact, and I'm getting concerned with oil-pan clearance. More on this later.

 

[Schwarttzy]

Bummer, I was thinking this could happen.

 

[bebe]

ARRRGGH!...Today was a one of those revelation days. The revelation was that Blackbear's axle might actually be a "jack-a-lope". I say this because I have found out that there is no flippin way a stock H3 half-shaft can even reach the carrier as shown in this photo...

View attachment 8002

True...this is an H3 half-shaft. True...this is a 10-bolt housing. That's where the truth ends. The end of the CV is plugged into the housing...but it ain't plugged into the carrier! The male shaft on the end of the CV is only 4" long. Its AT LEAST 5.5" from the seal to the carrier....so one of three things is going on here. (1) He has found an inboard CV joint with a longer shaft. (2) He has installed a coupler and an extension between the shaft and the carrier. (3) He is bull$hitting us.

All is not lost on this. I still got a couple tricks up my sleeve, and I might be able to pull a rabbit out...but, its going to take some more head-scratching. I have brought this project back to my home shop for a more detailed analysis. I have a couple ideas how to salvage this but none of them are very compact, and I'm getting concerned with oil-pan clearance. More on this later.

Do you think you can do it with a stub shaft and 1500 axle? (I think you can).

Edit: with a drivers side drop.

 

[5gn-h3t]

That sounds like a very good idea but may push the diff into the oil pan. Not including the H3 inboard stub shaft, the 1500 shaft is longer, right?

Bebe - the more I dig into the front end of my truck, the more I realize why you went as far as you did with yours. I first took it apart to fix the steering rack issue. Then I got a domino effect of crap that I want to completely re-engineer after I realized how it's made and attached to the truck. Assuming you want to actually go off-road, there's some real mickey mouse stuff going on in the front of an H3. Small front diff, UCA's, diff bushings, rack bushings, ugh... The CV shafts and wheel bearings might be the best thing on the front of the truck. I killed the pass. rack bushing in 11K miles on my T (amongst other things). My never-off-road H3 Alpha still had the factory alignment at 85K miles when I traded it in.

Edit - How would you retain the stub shaft? With a regular c-clip like a factory axle?

 

[bebe]

Well - thanks, but we had to for how I used the truck. Trust me - there were three sets of eyes/brains staring at that thing and discussing every possibility imaginable.

If you are going to use the stub shaft method - I would use a set 20 bearing and retainer, which I did. (Made by Dutchman)

If you are keeping the H3 shaft, you have to keep the c-clip. There is an option we abandoned, and I think Rick is going to post it up here shortly.

Regarding the oil pan - the diff has to be mounted lower to accommodate it like I mentioned a ways back in this thread. I had to do it and 4digger had to do it.

 

[4speedfunk]

I'm not overly concerned with the diff height, (ie: Rancho). Flanges and aftermarket/custom half-shafts are out...that's the whole point of using the 10-bolt. From the start...the idea was to locate the passenger-side CV-seal, exactly in the same spot as it is on the AAM-7 and it must receive the stock half-shaft. Every project has a set of criteria that must be met, and this is an absolute requirement. Anything other than this solution is not acceptable. Its either this or the dumpster. I simply won't waste any more time, money, or effort to build an IFS outside of this box...especially with the 10-bolt. The idea is to make a bolt-in, Saturday afternoon housing and nothing more. Bebe...your IFS is awesome. I'm tickled with my SA rig. But, this build is for the guy that has a $1000 budget, and no resources for custom work.

The main issue now is: how to put a coupling on the passenger side. It needs to be a real short coupling...shorter than the one on the drivers-side of the AAM-7 but similar in design...28 to 28. This will definitely shift the pumpkin further inboard but, I'm not sure how far. Any splined coupling, needs 1.5" of contact area at the splines. So, to mate two shafts end-to-end...the minimum length of a coupling is 3". That's the MINIMUM, and it doesn't take into account any clips, retaining rings, bearings, seals, blah blah. So it becomes real obvious that the housing has to grow outward to the passenger side. As stated above...the seal must stay in the same relative spot on the vehicle. So the pumpkin needs to shift further inboard. There's no way around it. That's not the end of the world...especially with the Rancho. The question is (for all you Rancho guys), how much room do we got? And (for me) how tight can I make the coupling?

I'm not gonna kill myself to make this work but, I find problems like this very challenging. I won't give up until I know for sure there's no way in hell it will work. I'm only half-way to hell right now...so, I'm gonna sleep on it. As usual, throw your ideas out there if you got any. There are great minds at work on this forum, and I welcome any input.

 

[06 H3]

alright, I will go out and see how much room I have in between the housing and the oil pan but remember the 10 bolt is probably taller and wider so that needs to be accounted for. This may sound crazy but is their a type of piece that is a splined shaft on one end (splines on outside) then a splined "accepter" piece on the other? almost like a driveshaft...The issue would probably be the axle tube then.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/...u2Bxr5A9vMUZ7LGY49zeNKuGI2w4PQuEiQsRIm11ssbJA

 

[06 H3]

been thinking too hard...Im gonna stop for now and just give my mind a break. I have been online for a while thinking of ideas. going too far inboard will run into issues for non lifted rigs, not sure about me. So just to clarify...you put the halshaft into the axle the inner side doesnt reach into the carrier?

 

[Schwarttzy]

you put the halshaft into the axle the inner side doesnt reach into the carrier?

Solid Axles have the drive-shafts nearly touch the at the center of the differential.

 

[4speedfunk]

been thinking too hard...Im gonna stop for now and just give my mind a break

Yup. Right there with you. A solution will appear...or it won't.

 

[bebe]

That's all I got!

 

[06 H3]

You know something we don't?

 

[4speedfunk]

I'm puttin a fork in it. I'm convinced that you could throw stupid amounts of resources at this and get it done. But, the 8.5" 10-bolt axle has a very low-value as a candidate, so the point at which you give-up...happens much earlier in the build. It's one and only advantage is that it shares the same splines, and in theory...it could accept stock half-shafts. So in order to justify using it...you must seize that single advantage. However, I have found that dimensionally...it just won't work. The nose on the stock H3 half-shaft is a full 1-1/2" too short. To add a coupler would take additional room that just isn't available. Not to mention...you would then have couplers on each end of the thing, plus two custom stub shafts. That whole plan is moving in the wrong direction. So...its dumpster time.

So where does that leave this? Well, Bebe has some great ideas (with good reason). She's been down this road and found many of the same issues. Its very hard to come up with a cheap, simple version of her build...a "Bebe Light" if you will. Like she said in a previous post..."we had to build it like this for how I used the truck". This is very well put, and it explains the snowballing that she got into with her build. To do it right and achieve all of the lofty goals she set on the onset...she had to solve all of the problems along the way, with very little compromise. The result is awesome... a long-travel, custom A-arm, Coil-over, custom rack, hell-rig! Its the rig everyone wants...but few can acquire.

But, what if you compromised a tad? Could you do something similar and keep the stock travel, A-arms, torsion-bars, and steering? Something more than Digger's but, less than Bebe's? THAT is the rig everyone is interested in. One thing for sure is the goals must be defined ahead of time and adhered to. You're gonna have to be okay with non-greasable A-arms, a stock rack, and torsion-bar suspension. These are big-ticket items that will start the snow-balling, so you gotta catch the problems early in the build and be willing to compromise. Its no secret that all of these stock components, well...suck. But you have to draw the line somewhere if you're on a limited budget and have limited time. Compromise. Thats the real question you gotta ask.

 

[08H3]

...Something more than Digger's....

Where is 4-Digger anyway? His build would have fit me perfectly for my use (I think), and from what he told me of the pricing, his price would have been reasonable. Of course, the masses wanted if for dirt cheap, so he never went forward with plans of ever mass producing.

 

[06 H3]

People can't get upset at a price tag over 1k or even 2k for that matter. Axles cost money, machining costs money, if this went through its gonna be somewhat pricey. It doesn't matter what the vehicle is. If I was 4digr Id be kinda pist if people bitched about the price.

So, where does this leave us? 10 bolts out....TTB axle with stub shafts and H2 axle shafts? Honestly after changing an H3 half shaft last night in the driveway Id hate to do it on a trail. What a pain! I helped jrwid change on and it was so easy the tire didn't even come off. Maybe something else will work with H2 shafts. Idk...just having a hard time giving this up

 

[backcountryislife]

People put 5k+ into prorock 44's on jeeps...

I think the issue here isn't cost as much as the guessing.

If there were a product like what 4speed was working on that you could simply buy & install... I bet they'd sell, but 99% of people don't want to deal with the fab side of things.

SAS for example, if there were a "bolt on" (general idea) kit one could buy where all you had to do was buy a D44 front, people would do it... but it's so much trial & error, and most folks just don't have the time to guess, go back, redo, etc...

 

[jakesz28]

Exactly. I think if I keep playing with the H3 I will have a straight axle in my future. If there was a bolt in kit I would have already ordered it. I just like the way this goes down the road. I'm worried about cutting and losing that. If it was just a toy and not a driver it would be different. Right now since I'm so far from any where to wheel. I haven't broken it yet. I say that because its only time before it happens.

EDIT. I have two new spare racks one stays in the Hummer. I plan on picking up a front axle assembly and shafts. What I want for spare parts comes in at the price of building a used Dana 44. So I haven't ordered anything else. A cast iron axle assembly with locker is about $1400.

 

[06 H3]

If you wheel carefully you can go lots of places without breaking.

I'm giving up on the 10 bolt idea but not the beefier ifs idea. I may go ahead and look into other axles and ill find a machine shop. I may go with an H2 shaft deal.

Bebe is right it almost seems easier to start over. Easy deal to make the axle wider. Sell a kit with longer UCA and LCA but then you need to go to coilovers because its a bitch with the torsion deal on the LCA at that point your might as well start over. So with that said

Let's say I take a TTB front axle center it a tad with splined stub shafts and run H2 shafts. Issues would be mounting ears and rear mount but how tough is it to keep the with stock width of the current aam7 with half shaft assembly

 

[MTUH3]

FYI, I plan on taking the upper and lower control arms to an offroad run in Jan to have the guys at ICON take a look and offer advice on how to make a longer control arm set up. Keep you guys posted.

With that said, if anyone has a lower control arm set laying around let me know, I have a new pair of uppers already