H3 H3 Steering Rack Mounting/ Diff Crossmember Facts And Opinion By PCF

Basic Info.:
GM produced the H3/H3T with a improperly engineered, poorly manufactured front suspension/steering/front drive system on the H3/H3T. This is complicated by a vehicle that was advertised to have more capabilities than actual. Units used as advertized will experience front drive/front steering failures.

PCF would like to address two topics; Steering rack mounting and front differential support crossmember.

H4O Member/Sponsor efforts:

Steering rack mount upgrade:

Hunner, a H40 Sponsor, was the first to put money,time and effort into the problem. While Hunner's ideas had addressed the issue of the factory right rack mount bushing, other issues also showed up that caused this repair to not completely hold the rack in proper mounting orientation. Hunner needs to be given the credit and accolades for investing HIS own time, money and HIS IDEAS to come up with a solution.

In September 2012, BigUnit and AzTraveler contacted PCF to ask if I had any ideas to address the H3 steering rack issue. October 02, 2012 AzTraveler came to PCF's shop with BigUnit to have the idea looked at and possibilities discussed. While installing the ScorpWorks c-member up date on the H3T the steering issue was examined, measured and idea conceptually designed. A initial drawing was done on the work bench. Blueprint was made, material sourced and proof of concept was produced. This prototype was initially released as a photo by BigUnit on 11/21/2012 from Kappys Bar. The mount was installed on AZTravelers H3T shortly after Thanksgiving 2012 and through what was learned changes were made and three final pre-production mounts were produced for member installation and were installed on BigUnit,Alrock and Cbetts H3/H3T's. 10 production units will go to anodizing this week.

No talk of a machined aluminum rack mount was talked about on forum prior to release of Bigunit's photo. Now Outfitter Design and Mayhem Metal Works have cosmetic representations of the released PCF design.

Differential Crossmember:

For over a year the ScorpWorks c-member has been availiable for H40 members. This came about as Alrock's request to fix failed unit. Now a certain member is producing the same concept and trying to find traction from forum membership.


Now that he facts are down I will add my opinion.....

Knowing that once ideas/designs/products are released there are the ones with unethical practices that believe in the China practices of reverse engineering, copying and idea theft. And this is in effect and practiced here. So DO NOT ask the hows, the why and design/reason behind PCF's concepts. If you dont believe in the product dont F*****G buy it-and dont ask me how its made-you will not get an answer. To the statement made here in the rack discussion thread "the one who is first going to China wins" maybe that is why the USA manufacturing is in the situation it's in. PCF will allways sell USA made products whenever possible, and support the faithful, honest customer.

Hunner needs to be thanked by membership for starting this rack mount repair effort rather than being pushed aside when the "new idea" arrives.

I do not care if this upsets the "arm chair wheelers", "arm chair manufacturers" or the "Chinese philosophy manufacturers". I REALLY dont!

PreferredChassisFab said:

No talk of a machined aluminum rack mount was talked about on forum prior to release of Bigunit's photo. Now Outfitter Design and Mayhem Metal Works have cosmetic representations of the released PCF design.

Click to expand...

I'm stoked to see your clamp get to market, and I'm pretty sure it'll do very well, it looks pretty sweet!

My only thing to add, I don't think it was discussed on the open forum, but the guys from Metal Mayhem contacted me about an aluminum rack mount being worked on well before Any pic was ever on the forum (to make sure this is 100% clear, the pics of yours showed up AFTER I sold my 3, while Mayhem was working on this while I still had it). I'm not saying you were behind them or trying to make any kind of assumptions, but what I KNOW is that they had one they were working on before you showed yours... so it's not as if they just copied yours. Had I seen your clamp before I sold my 3 you would have had to deal with me sending you a PM an hour BEGGING for a prototype!! Being that this seems to be the accusation you're making I thought that since I had first hand knowledge, I'd make this completely clear that it's incorrect. The guys out east were also working on one before 7.15.12 with a similar intent.

If you take a moment to google "steering rack clamp"

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=steering+rack+clamp







You come up with quite a few clamps of similar design, so the general basis of design isn't much of a reach in the first place. One looking for a smart way to clamp this rack need only look so far as to the others who have done it in the past, as they're not terribly uncommon or hard to find, to base a new design off of.... so to assume that everyone copied you seems a bit premature.




Btw, From a educational standpoint I'd be curious to hear your take on why you're feeling the single side is better, or that more isn't needed. I don't think I'm going out on much of a limb saying that you likely gave it plenty of thought as to how to properly address the situation & I really am curious as to what got you there, made you feel that was the way to go. My theory is that you need more, but I'm very curious to see what you think, because I'm pretty sure you've likely got some sound reasoning behind it. Clearly I also have given this some thought, and I came up with a different theory, but that makes for interesting discussion, rather than really any kind of "one of us is RIGHT the other is WRONG" If you want to have an attitude about your design... that's fine, I'm not buying any of them, so it's not hurting me, it's hurting you, since you're the one producing the clamp... it's up to YOU to tell folks why you feel it's better, not us.

Funny though... all the attitude about "armchair wheelers". I didn't break my racks from my armchair, I haven't been in my armchair on my last 3 trips to Moab this winter & spring... we all wheel, and we're all working for how to make life better for those on the trail, attempting to belittle others about their ideas is pretty weak.

I am going to respond to this as it is a direct attack on me and my business practices. I started working on this in late Aug/early sept of last year.


Here is my timeline from the early stages of design.

I was talking to "backcountylife" about testing it and sent him a pic of my initial solidworks drawing some time in sept. (I have a new phone so I cannot nail down the exact date)

about that time "backcountryslife" gave up on his H3 so on 10/17/12 I contacted "06H3" about working with me on prototyping my product

No one is copping you, if anything we are all copping a common aftermarket rack mount design that has been around for decades. For the record my product is made right here in the USA. I do my best to support other local small businesses so the machining is all done by a little one man shop in the next town over.

EDIT: This should put the who copied who issue to bed. Here is proof of when I started working on it in case anyone thinks I am B.S.ing. Look at the created date, that is when I started working on the solidworks model so obviously I was working on the design prior to that, and the last saved date is when I finished the final design.

.

am4x4 said:

I am going to respond to this as it is a direct attack on me and my business practices. I started working on this in late Aug/early sept of last year.

Here is my timeline.

I was talking to "backcountylife" about testing it and sent him a pic of my initial solidworks drawing some time in sept. (I have a new phone so I cannot nail down the exact date)

Click to expand...

It was between the 3rd of sept & the 7th that you contacted me as this was the day I responded which was after the weekend & you contacted me during the week before.

Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 2:30 PM
To: Kaleb Timberlake
Subject: Re: Steering racks

body of email deleted

http://www.mayhemmetalworks.com/
Hope this will fix the entire issue!!!

Sent from my iPhone

Wow, people just want some actual info on your product and that is your response as a sponsor? I had contacted AM4x4 about this issue in August and then helped him get in contact with Backcountrylife. Guess Outbackfitters will be getting my crossmember buisness when mine goes out.

Not that I care at this point but...here is mine dated 8/12/12. We each have our own take on this and each design is different and uses different materials. If they want to play the infringement game I have everything dated from files to workorders to invoices. Personally I think this is a waste of time. Let buyers pick which one they like the best and lets move on back to what its all about...WHEELING. Besides there are so many new products that still need to be made!

I got the OK to post this and thought I'd share a pic of my next off road rig - it's a purpose - built rig that PCF is building. If PCF can make these for the military, I'm not too worried about whether PCF can make a ****ing steering rack mount that will address and permanently fix an issue with my H3T.

All I can say is that Hunner's has held up well for him so I got one of his. I wish there was not so much squabbling within the forum. We are all suppose to be here for the love of wheeling or the Hummer or both. Squabbling does nothing for ones business, and it sure does nothing for someone checking out the site for the first time or two.....

..Thanks for the cool head Pappibri...no worries, this too shall pass. We are after all, 1 big happy, albeit sometimes "dysfunctional", family - like most real families. This is how some of us communicate with each other. but it's all good and healthy to get it all out, from my perspective!

Bigunit said:

I got the OK to post this and thought I'd share a pic of my next off road rig - it's a purpose - built rig that PCF is building. If PCF can make these for the military, I'm not too worried about whether PCF can make a ****ing steering rack mount that will address and permanently fix an issue with my H3T.

Click to expand...

Cool story. I built a Rock buggy too.

And for the record the scorpion was designed by Soni Honegger, Though I am sure the latest incarnation has some changes. I have not see the newer Scorpions in person but I have seen some other vehicles the military spent our money on and lets just say that they are not engineering or fabrication masterpieces.

Are we gonna use rulers or yard sticks to start the measuring?! Lol


FRU

Without having talked to Dwaine directly on this, his post reflects what many sponsors and non-sponsors have shared with me in the past - trying to do business on a forum often involves a lot of BS of spending time defending a product against, for the lack of a better phrase, "trash talk". In the past I've invited other vendors to join us and there's been a common refrain: "I don't have time to deal with forum BS for the amount of product I would or could sell. People just want to win arguments." This is not a reflection of H4O in particular; this is fairly universal.

All of the vendors deal with it at some level and some more than others. Tempers often flare here - some more muted, some more openly - simply because many of us, including myself, spend more time trying to win arguments than to accept the arguments that are present. Many legitimate questions come up and generally those get answered. But many questions that are placed seem solely to question and undermine the vendor as to the choices they made. Human nature, I guess, but frustrating as hell to deal with. PCF isn't the first to deal with these types of questions and I suspect the many have wanted to say exactly what PCF said. You are welcome to take it as you wish - praise, indifference or resentment.

For this, I owe Hunner a direct apology: while I stated that my previous (unnamed) fix did not work, I must acknowledge and agree that the fault lay two fold: my truck was likely too damaged to accept the fix in hand, and I did not follow the installation directions as recommended. My apologies to you Hunner. I was not trying to dishonor your product but in retrospect, I did do that.

Buy the product you want to buy and don't buy the project that isn't acceptable to you. I ask you to please understand what the vendors deal with on forums that they simply don't have to deal with through nearly any other commercial outlet.

Similarly, H4O has agreements with our vendors with which we enforce and abide. That means some vendors are in, some are out. Some are allowed to sell here, others aren't. An example would be if you owned a McDonalds and had an agreement to sell Coke. If another vendor comes in promoting Pepsi, as the McDonald's owner you not only have the right but you also have the obligation to kick out Pepsi. However, as the McDonald's owner you won't stop customers from talking about Pepsi, or mentioning Pepsi. We have to draw the line somewhere, and that line gets drawn where I feel comfortable drawing it. Some will agree, some will disagree.

We always hope you'll choose H4O as your Hummer home, and we always hope you'll choose to support our vendors. If you go a different direction that's fine and that's your choice - no harm, no foul.

I doubt I will put any kind of stop on the questions that put vendors on the defensive - the same questions that drive vendors away from even participating in forums. But hopefully I provided some perspective as to what they deal with and the choices that they make in their level of involvement on the forum.

frumaker said:

Are we gonna use rulers or yard sticks to start the measuring?! Lol


FRU

Click to expand...

Alex, the fact that he started a nasty new thread instead of just simply explaining why he feels this setup is ideal (as I've said... I'd assume he's got a darn good reason, and those that share my theory on locking both sides, just aren't seeing it... and are more than happy to discuss, or accept his theory in comparison.) is just a bit odd. As you can see nearly everyone started at a similar time with what are simply piggybacks on other products, so claiming somehow he's been "wronged" seems just way off base. The only reason for it to get nasty at all is him starting a nasty thread rather than hopping in & explaining why he has confidence in his own product.

frumaker said:

Are we gonna use rulers or yard sticks to start the measuring?! Lol


FRU

Click to expand...

Don't know about the other guys.....but I am going to need a yard stick

I may have been a little harsh but getting attacked for no good reason will do that to me. I NEVER talked bad about PCF or their product until he started crap this morning.

We keep hearing about how great he is and how awesome his stuff is but no one will talk about WHY it is so great.

Reproducing someone elses design and marketing it to the military does not make someone supremely capable of fixing a completely different problem. To keep pushing that as a reason while dismissing other products is a disservice to the members of this forum.

As with everything else people should research the products before they buy and buy what fits their need the most. Everybody has different metrics to judge by. Design, product longevity, warranty, their budget, perceived value, color...whatever it is that trips your decision is valid for you but may be different for others. I don't need to be sold. If and when I buy one of these products I will talk to people running the various products, do a little research and make my decision. Histrionics, bluster and theorehetical hyperbole from people not running the product aren't going to sway me one way or the other. Glad to see so many people attacking the issue of aftermarket needs for the H3 though.

3Hummers said:

theorehetical hyperbole from people not running the product aren't going to sway me one way or the other.

Click to expand...

The tough thing about mods though in any industry is that you'll rarely find people that DO have experience with multiple different mods/ different types of solutions. Most pick one, and stick with it. In general one of the advantages of forums is to discuss the advantages & disadvantages of each and learn from the experience from each person who has tried a different fix.


In other words... theory is a big part of the discussion.

am4x4 said:

Cool story. I built a Rock buggy too.

And for the record the scorpion was designed by Soni Honegger, Though I am sure the latest incarnation has some changes. I have not see the newer Scorpions in person but I have seen some other vehicles the military spent our money on and lets just say that they are not engineering or fabrication masterpieces.

Click to expand...

am4x4 I am glad you recognize my close personal friend as the person who concieved the Scorpion. Some players on the internet claim differently. And I would agree that there have been some military vehicles as of late that have not impressed me either.

As for "Reproducing someone elses design and marketing it to the military does not make someone supremely capable of fixing a completely different problem. To keep pushing that as a reason while dismissing other products is a disservice to the members of this forum." it sounds that you are not informed as needed to make that statement.

If I incorrectly stated the facts in my original post Im sure I will be corrected. As for my opinion, what can I say , that is my opinion... But as for 16 years of Scorpion history, people involved, timing of events, number of units built, the origin and ownership of the intellectual property contained in each unit and how and what is being marketed to the millitary I would recomend to you that this is a balttle you will lose and badly.

As Alex stated "Without having talked to Dwaine directly on this, his post reflects what many sponsors and non-sponsors have shared with me in the past - trying to do business on a forum often involves a lot of BS of spending time defending a product against, for the lack of a better phrase, "trash talk"." and "PCF isn't the first to deal with these types of questions and I suspect the many have wanted to say exactly what PCF said." Alex this pretty much hits it on the head. If Sponsors make committments to Forum Administrators to market "Exclusive to H4O" I feel it is wrong to allow outside influences to market like/similar/exact products. And since it is a forum I also feel that Sopnsors should be allowed to "respectfully" and openly express their opinions as well.

am4x4 said:

Reproducing someone elses design and marketing it to the military does not make someone supremely capable of fixing a completely different problem.

Click to expand...

am, I am quite familiar with the history of the Scorpion (I will bet that it's more so than yours - your going to need to pull out a tape measure for mine) and I call ignorant BS to your statement above. The current and future iteration of the Scorpion is not simply a reproduction of Soni's design (if you knew anything about patents and how to look them up you would realize that you are 100% wrong) it's a new design - has to be for the military. For someone who professes to know and have done everything there is to do & know in life, your lack of knowledge about the Scorpion exposed a huge gap in your knowledge base. I'm sure that you will have to have the last word on this subject as well. :hpoop

PreferredChassisFab said:

am4x4 I am glad you recognize my close personal friend as the person who concieved the Scorpion. Some players on the internet claim differently. And I would agree that there have been some military vehicles as of late that have not impressed me either.

As for "Reproducing someone elses design and marketing it to the military does not make someone supremely capable of fixing a completely different problem. To keep pushing that as a reason while dismissing other products is a disservice to the members of this forum." it sounds that you are not informed as needed to make that statement.

If I incorrectly stated the facts in my original post Im sure I will be corrected. As for my opinion, what can I say , that is my opinion... But as for 16 years of Scorpion history, people involved, timing of events, number of units built, the origin and ownership of the intellectual property contained in each unit and how and what is being marketed to the millitary I would recomend to you that this is a balttle you will lose and badly.

As Alex stated "Without having talked to Dwaine directly on this, his post reflects what many sponsors and non-sponsors have shared with me in the past - trying to do business on a forum often involves a lot of BS of spending time defending a product against, for the lack of a better phrase, "trash talk"." and "PCF isn't the first to deal with these types of questions and I suspect the many have wanted to say exactly what PCF said." Alex this pretty much hits it on the head. If Sponsors make committments to Forum Administrators to market "Exclusive to H4O" I feel it is wrong to allow outside influences to market like/similar/exact products. And since it is a forum I also feel that Sopnsors should be allowed to "respectfully" and openly express their opinions as well.

Click to expand...

Welcome back!

Those statements were made in response to a post in this thread and other threads that proclaim that BECAUSE you make the scorpion and that you have some type of OE manufacturing certs, you are the best/only one that can properly fix this steering rack issue.

I never said or meant to imply that you don't own the rights to the design. I am happy for you that you have the opportunity for a military contract... but that does not make you the god of steering rack mount design as some have suggested

Obviously you and I have very different ideas and very different solutions on how to fix this problem. Maybe one will work, maybe both will work, only time will tell.

I never had an issue with you until you incorrectly accused me of unethical business practices. I think I have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that your accusations are not true. If you have a problem with someone else you should take it up with them but I will not have my name dragged through the mud for something I did not do.

Bigunit said:

am, I am quite familiar with the history of the Scorpion (I will bet that it's more so than yours - your going to need to pull out a tape measure for mine) and I call ignorant BS to your statement above. The current and future iteration of the Scorpion is not simply a reproduction of Soni's design (if you knew anything about patents and how to look them up you would realize that you are 100% wrong) it's a new design - has to be for the military. For someone who professes to know and have done everything there is to do & know in life, your lack of knowledge about the Scorpion exposed a huge gap in your knowledge base. I'm sure that you will have to have the last word on this subject as well. :hpoop

Click to expand...

Hell of a way for a mod to act!

#1 I recognised that it's "current incarnation" is not the same as the original

#2 If bringing quality, informative, and factual tech mixed with clearly noted opinion to the board qualifies as "know and done everything there is to know and do in life" then I guess you got me there.

PreferredChassisFab said:

If I incorrectly stated the facts in my original post Im sure I will be corrected.

Click to expand...

you did, and you were.


What you did is called slander. Accusing people of STEALING when it's not true.


Bigunit you can keep on deleting my posts, but at least have the honesty to tell me why.

This thread was started to slander two other companies, the slander was WRONG, it's incorrect, and the fact that you delete MY posts, but leave up the slander is pitiful.

You have crossed the line BC. There's been no slander - reread his post - he separated facts from his opinions. You have been free to express yours from the beginning and the minute he expresses his - you cry foul. Before you tell me what the law is, you should first know what it is.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapataint

Bigunit said:

You have crossed the line BC. There's been no slander - reread his post - he separated facts from his opinions. You have been free to express yours from the beginning and the minute he expresses his - you cry foul. Before you tell me what the law is, you should first know what it is.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapataint

Click to expand...

"No talk of a machined aluminum rack mount was talked about on forum prior to release of Bigunit's photo. Now Outfitter Design and Mayhem Metal Works have cosmetic representations of the released PCF design."


You're clearly not willing to admit that he's out of line... but he's CLEARLY claiming they stole his design, which is bs. 100%, it has been proven here, can be proven more, but he won't acknowledge that either. Had he come back on & said "ah, crap... guess I was wrong"... that would be one thing, but he's not even willing to do that.


Claiming people stole your design is pretty serious.... that's exactly what he did.


I didn't cross any lines... the guy who started a thread to claim other people are thieves owns that one...

Let me add one fact: one vendor, not am4x4, previously accused PCF of stealing the CAD design for this product.

I suspect the original post is in part a response to that accusation.

I disagree but that's your opinion.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapataint