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View Poll Results: What's Your Stance on an All-Electric Hummer?

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  • I want one and think GM will make them

    4 13.33%
  • I want one and think GM won't make them

    8 26.67%
  • I wouldn't be interested and think GM will make them

    2 6.67%
  • I wouldn't be interested and think GM won't make them

    7 23.33%
  • Hell no, Hummers shouldn't ever have to change for the tree hugging commies

    9 30.00%
  • Forget the Hummer brand at this point, lets just move to Jeeps

    0 0%
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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxPF View Post
    Like all EV's, that rated HP will be for very brief "sprints". The motors and batteries would rapidly overheat if that output was sustained for any length of time.
    Can the same not be said for gas or Diesel engines?

    As long as an electric power train to designed to run at a high duty cycle then whatís the problem?

    Are gas or Diesel engines designed to run at their max output for long periods of time? Some are, right? So, arguably, itís a matter of building the system to handle the load itís likely to see Iíd think


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  3. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxPF View Post
    Like all EV's, that rated HP will be for very brief "sprints". The motors and batteries would rapidly overheat if that output was sustained for any length of time.

    And yes, it's going to be a wealthy person's toy. Figure the sticker price north of 100k, a useful battery life of perhaps 150k miles (at which point your 400-mile battery gives you 200 or less miles of range) and a battery replacement cost of 40-50% of the new vehicle cost. They would also be smart to allow it to charge off of Tesla's Supercharger stations, because a 400 mile-range battery is going to be a lot of KW/h, and even a 50A 240 outlet ain't gonna charge it overnight.

    I seriously doubt you will see one on any serious trail. The scenic trails at Moab? Sure. But a new owner ain't gonna risk a dent or scratch on this pricey unit. However, if someone does and I'm around, I will be more than happy to get them un-stuck or tow 'em out to the road where they can be loaded up on a flatbed
    I watched the H1 owners dis the H2 when it came out. I then had to listen to H1 and H2 owners out down the H3 when it came out.
    All 3 turned out to be great off-road. Each in their own way. And reach one head their failings.
    I'll at least give the GMC Hummer a chance.

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  5. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by LagunaH1 View Post
    Can the same not be said for gas or Diesel engines?

    As long as an electric power train to designed to run at a high duty cycle then whatís the problem?

    Are gas or Diesel engines designed to run at their max output for long periods of time? Some are, right? So, arguably, itís a matter of building the system to handle the load itís likely to see Iíd think


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    Have you seen the size of a 1000HP continuous-duty electric motor? The "light" ones weigh over 7000lbs. The heavier induction-type are typically north of 9000lbs. Water cooling can reduce the size somewhat, as does using permanent magnets, but you're still talking about a very large, heavy motor.

    I agree that a 1000HP supercharged engine in a Hummer-sized vehicle is not going to be continuous-duty either. That said, a new 700HP Corvette can sustain it's full output for many minutes, at least long enough to reach and, for a time, hold the car's top speed. The primary limitation is the cooling system. It's hard to fit a radiator capable of dissipating 1.7 million btu/h in a Corvette,

    I remember when the ZR-1 Corvette powered by the Mercury Marine LT5 engine (375HP), and a standard Corvette engineers modified a regular small-block powered Corvette's engine with off-the-shelf parts to make 350HP, both ran 24 hours flat out on a 2-1/2 mile track with stops only to re-fuel. If those cars were electric, a 350HP-375HP electric motor capable of running continuously would weigh four times what those gasoline engines weigh. I won't even mention the size of the battery pack needed to sustain that output for thirty minutes, which is the approximate length of time a 350-375HP engine running flat out can run on a 15-20 gallon gas tank in a Corvette.

    Quote Originally Posted by deserth3 View Post
    I watched the H1 owners dis the H2 when it came out. I then had to listen to H1 and H2 owners out down the H3 when it came out.
    All 3 turned out to be great off-road. Each in their own way. And reach one head their failings.
    I'll at least give the GMC Hummer a chance.

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    I'm not concerned about it's capability or performance. I have concerns about it's true utility as something other than a toy for the well-heeled and a vehicle to appease the windmill huggers.

    I do have the same recommendations for this vehicle as that to anyone wanting a Tesla or any other EV: LEASE IT! You don't want to be stuck trying to unload it after half the battery capacity is gone and any potential buyer (or dealer for a trade-in) realizes a new battery pack is 40% of the cost of a new vehicle of the same model
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  6. #79
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    Whether the new HummerEV will be designed to be able to withstand the stresses it encounters as owners use it, remains to be seen. I happen to think there is a good chance it will work just fine. Your comments about EV's loss of battery capacity seem exaggerated. I say this based on the statistics I have seen regarding Teslas. Do they lose battery capacity over time? Yes. If memory serves me correctly, about 5% in the first 3 years, then less in the years following. Tesla has a pretty substantial warranty on their battery packs: 8 years or 120000 miles with retention of 70% or better battery capacity remaining. Which gas / Diesel engine manufacturers offer that kind of warranty?

    BTW: I *do* lease my Tesla. Not because I'm particularly concerned about loss of battery capacity, but because the EV market looks like it will be VERY different in 3 years. I believe there will be many many more EV's on the market by that time, so I am protecting myself from any crazy losses of value by leasing.
    Last edited by LagunaH1; 02-03-2020 at 10:26 AM.
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  7. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by LagunaH1 View Post
    Whether the new HummerEV will be designed to be able to withstand the stresses it encounters as owners use it, remains to be seen. I happen to think there is a good chance it will work just fine. Your comments about EV's loss of battery capacity seem exaggerated.
    It depends on the climate and usage. Hot climates like AZ wear the batteries out faster. Deeper discharging before recharging wears the batteries out faster. Higher charge levels wear the batteries out faster. Use of the Supercharger wears the batteries out much, MUCH faster!

    I say this based on the statistics I have seen regarding Teslas. Do they lose battery capacity over time? Yes. If memory serves me correctly, about 5% in the first 3 years, then less in the years following.
    Again, that depends on many factors. That figure would be the most optimistic scenario.


    Tesla has a pretty substantial warranty on their battery packs: 8 years or 120000 miles with retention of 70% or better battery capacity remaining. Which gas / Diesel engine manufacturers offer that kind of warranty?
    They don't have to. Fuel tanks don't shrink in size as they age. The fuel tank in my Blazer holds the same 31 gallons of fuel as it did when it rolled off the assembly line in 1991. How many EV's will still be on the road in 29 years?



    BTW: I *do* lease my Tesla. Not because I'm particularly concerned about loss of battery capacity, but because the EV market looks like it will be VERY different in 3 years. I believe there will be many many more EV's on the market by that time, so I am protecting myself from any crazy losses of value by leasing.
    You make one of my points about EVs. Because their "fuel tank" shrinks with age and use, they will depreciate much more rapidly. When the battery reaches less than 50%, and definitely by the 30% mark, the vehicle will be scrap because the batteries are far too expensive to replace compared to the vehicle's residual value.

    That brings me to another problem; recycleability. The batteries are only partially recycleable. The motors are probably nearly 100% recycleable (not sure about the permanent magnets). So is the copper or aluminum wiring. However, the electronics are not only not recycleable, but they are persistent toxic waste. One of the most polluted, toxic cities in China is the one where much of the world's dead electronics go to be "recycled". They extract the meager (but profitable) precious metals and junk the rest. Because EV's are impacted by weight more than vehicles powered by ICE's, more lightweight composites and filled plastics are used, both of which are virtually non-recycleable, don't have much use as ground filler material, don't biodegrade, and can only be incinerated in incinerators with expensive filtration to remove the toxic compounds generated. There are also a lot of non-filled plastics used that are also not either economically or practically/usefully recycleable. Basically, they are bulk waste with varying levels of toxicity, just like the scrap electronics.

    By contrast, steel and aluminum are EXTREMELY recycleable. Modern cars all use lots of non-recycleable composites and plastics, but those powered by ICE's use less than their electric counterparts, on average. Composite and plastic body panels might be good for dent resistance, but aluminum is just as light and can be recycled over and over. I will avoid my tirade on the trend/fad of equipping cars with more and more electronic infotainment junk that becomes more persistent solid waste when the disposable car they are used in is scrapped at the end of it's life. Also, ironically, despite the toxicity of lead, the lead-acid batteries commonly used for SLI (starting, lighting, ignition) are recycled with virtually no loss. They are the most completely recycled item in common use. Not just the lead plates and conductors, but the polyethylene case and separators are also highly recycleable.

    When discussing EV's, you have to consider so much more than "how many miles of gasoline equivalent does it get" and whether or not it emits CO2 from a tailpipe. They are far from being more environmentally and economically benign vs their ICE counterpart. And again, if the ICE vehicle is powered by renewable biofuels and manufactured with more recycleable materials, and considering ICE vehicles require very little in the way of rare expensive elements for their manufacture, then the environmental and economic aspects of EV's gets even worse.

    Finally, despite appearances, I am not "anti-EV" per se. I AM anti-EV using the current technology. I see it as hopelessly wasteful, and being touted as "environmentally friendly", "sustainable", and "emitting no evil global-warming-causing greenhouse gases" when in reality they are actually doing more environmental harm than ICE powered vehicles. They are an anti-solution to a non-existent problem. If you like your EV, like the performance, quietness, or whatever other perceived positive attribute, that is great, and that is the free market at work. They're being made, and if you like one and can afford it you can, and should, be allowed to own one. But when people start touting their "environmentally friendly" EVs and saying we need to eliminate ICE vehicles and replace them with current EV technology, that is where I have a big problem. I know nobody in this thread has proposed such a thing, but a LOT of global-warming evangelists do, and so do some EV manufacturers who spend millions lobbying in Washington for more laws and rules favorable to EVs. Even if EV's were truly superior to ICEV's environmentally I would be against it, but when it's based on lies solely to boost the profitability of the EV market then that makes it criminal.
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  9. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxPF View Post
    It depends on the climate and usage. Hot climates like AZ wear the batteries out faster. Deeper discharging before recharging wears the batteries out faster. Higher charge levels wear the batteries out faster. Use of the Supercharger wears the batteries out much, MUCH faster!



    Again, that depends on many factors. That figure would be the most optimistic scenario.
    Here is a source which points to actual, real world data on this topic. Not a scenario, not an assumption, but actual, real owner reported data: https://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla...radation-data/. The headline summarizes the data as: "Less than 10% degradation after 160000 miles".

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxPF View Post
    When discussing EV's, you have to consider so much more than "how many miles of gasoline equivalent does it get" and whether or not it emits CO2 from a tailpipe. They are far from being more environmentally and economically benign vs their ICE counterpart.
    Cite your sources for this please?


    Quote Originally Posted by MaxPF View Post
    And again, if the ICE vehicle is powered by renewable biofuels and manufactured with more recycleable materials, and considering ICE vehicles require very little in the way of rare expensive elements for their manufacture, then the environmental and economic aspects of EV's gets even worse.
    You say "IF". *ARE* most gas / diesel vehicles actually powered by biofuels? *ARE* they manufactures by more recyclable materials?



    Quote Originally Posted by MaxPF View Post
    when in reality they are actually doing more environmental harm than ICE powered vehicles.
    What are your sources for this?
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  10. #82
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    I recall reading several articles where they estimate 6-8 years for an electric vehicle to break even with gasoline counterparts, and thats mainly due to the fact manufacturing an electric vehicle produces alot of emissions initially!
    However, one advantage of electric vehicles is that you can use renewable energy sources to charge them (solar/wind) which would help drop that estimate while a gas powered vehicle cant.
    Keep in mind, economies of scale will eventually drop all those numbers.
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  11. #83
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    I know that in my business we do quite a bit of recycling. To meet some of the green building codes we have to recycle certain percentages of the material ( waste ) used in the construction of the project and use certain recycled materials in building the project. Many of the recyclers don't want paper. certain types of plastics, Styrofoam, etc because there is no money in recycling those products. Some will take paper even though they lose money recycling it.
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  12. #84
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    I will post my opinion.
    I have Tesla X 90D since sept 2016 (first gen)

    As a city runaround itís great. Wife mostly shuttles kids around.
    Quick as my old M6 (2007)

    Battery (my) has 8 year/unlimited mileage and being first gen free Superchargers

    Range depends on road conditions
    (hills add ~10/20% power use),
    weather ( cold ~up to 40% depending on difference between ambient temp and your T* setting)
    A/c uses quite less juice

    Prices on my model (100D) came down a lot last year~30%
    And it gained true Autopilot
    My partner got one for his wife end of last year and car actually drove him home without driver input ~30 mil ( freeways, streets and all)
    ( traffic signals update wasnít released yet, so it was seeing red light but didnít stop - itís being released later this year due to our socialist state )

    48amp home charger chargers ~32 mil/hour and u only charge 80% for dally driving
    I know 70 or maybe 100amp is available on certain models.

    Price wise
    Wifeís old car wasí08 GL 450 and we paid ~56k new back then

    Hew GL AMG was coming up to ~140k, so it was very similar in$$$

    $$ saving are modest for ~10k mil a year we save $3/4 k VS gas GL ( not included maintenance like tires, brakes ets)

    So in conclusion EVs like Tesla are great as city car ( rest of them are not worth looking at)
    But I donít see it doing any real long distance/ off-road use any time soon .





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  13. #85
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    I own a Tesla Model 3; Dual Motor Long Range model to be specific. Itís the wifeís daily commuter, though we love it so much we drive it everywhere all the time. Itís just an incredible vehicle. We purchased it when the Honda Fit became too worn out and it was time for a new commuter. The Model 3 had everything on the wish list, it blew away every other car we drove and compared it to, and it was different. We like different. Same reason I have owned my H3T for the last 9 years; I have only seen one other in person, ever, here in the southeast. That is also the reason I don't see this new Hummer EV being anything special. I watched the commercials, pausing and re-watching, really taking notice of the shape of the front, hood, fenders, hoping to get an idea of what this thing was going to look like. After studying it, from the front at least, it appears to be your standard GMC Sierra pickup with a shiny Hummer influenced grill. Nothing special. I don't think I would be interested no matter how it is powered. I really dislike the looks of pickup offerings today. They are so boring.

    As for being electric, that in itself wouldn't bother me. Certainly it wonít be a good fit for everyone. The range looks to be good though with an estimated 400 miles. That would work for me as it wouldnít be our road-trip vehicle. Which brings up the major point of consideration; if youíre looking at an EV purchase, I suggest you really educate yourself on the charging infrastructure in the part of the country where you live, and know that infrastructure's capabilities and shortcomings. If youíre just running the kids around town or driving to work and back, that is one thing. I mean, our Tesla charges at home while I'm sleeping, and I wake up every day with 300 miles of range for the daily commute; more than adequate. On a long road trip though, charge time will make or break your experience and there is a method to getting the most efficient charging session. Our Model 3 has a range of 328 miles on a full charge and we drive it all over, but I'm not sure I would want to do that if I didn't have access to Tesla's Supercharging network. I would not want to drive a 900 mile round-trip relying solely on commercial EV charging stations. That would be painful. Their charge rate is just too slow, and that is what you would be dealing with if you purchased a Hummer EV and was not charging at home. Right now, our long distance trips average 15 minutes charging for every 200 miles driven, so we would get a 15 minute pee/drink/snack/stretch break about every 3 hours of driving. With kids in the car, we can't make it more than 3 hours without stopping anyway, so it works. Charging time would be nearly double using commercial charging stations, and there are not that many of them. You could find yourself having to sit there and get a full charge, however long it took, just to be able to make it to the next one. The Supercharging network makes EV possible regardless of your vehicleís role, and the Supercharging network is only available to Tesla owners (currently). Just food for thought.

    However, letís say you have a Hummer EV and you pull your camper to the beach for a week vaca. Itís a 300 mile trip, so plenty of range to get there. Once your there and setup, just plug-up your Hummer to your campsiteís 30amp RV plug and enjoy the free gasÖ.I mean free juice. Good to go. There is always a way to make it work that is not as much an inconvenience as you would think.
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  14. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by LagunaH1 View Post
    Here is a source which points to actual, real world data on this topic. Not a scenario, not an assumption, but actual, real owner reported data: https://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla...radation-data/. The headline summarizes the data as: "Less than 10% degradation after 160000 miles".
    That data is from the "Dutch-Belgium" Telsa owners, has only 350 vehicles, and likely most are from Europe where the climate is cooler than here in the US southwest, the middle east, large swaths of Australia, and the entire equatorial belt. It also doesn't show the extra degredation caused by frequent use of Superchargers, which Tesla says should be minimized. There is also this little caveat:

    "Jeff Dahn, a renowned battery researcher and the leader of Tesla’s research partnership through his battery-research group at Dalhousie University, said that he recommends charging to only 70% daily in order to extend battery life."

    That is standard for any lithium battery technology, not just electric cars. Even your smartphone and laptop will gain considerable battery life if charged to no more than 70%. Most people replace 'em before its a problem anyway, so there's no real practical reason to limit charging on mobile devices. An expensive electric car is another matter.



    Cite your sources for this please?
    I'd have to look it all back up. I didn't save any of the URL's. DuckDuckGo (I never use Google) should be able to find the info for you, if you have time to burn Be careful though, as most analyses are concerned mainly with cost, not environmental impact, and even the ones that do specifically study environmental impact often neglect the recycleability (is that even a word? It is now!) if ICE and metallic car components vs many of the components in electric cars which cannot be economically recycled and are simply treated as solid waste.


    You say "IF". *ARE* most gas / diesel vehicles actually powered by biofuels? *ARE* they manufactures by more recyclable materials?
    Most of the fuel used to power combustion engines comes from underground. However, with the various mandates for oxygenated fuel and the fact that MTBE turned out to be a disaster it turns out that at least 10% of "gasoline" is ethanol, which is a biofuel (although not a particularly sustainable one, IMO). E85 is, of course, 85% ethanol. Most diesel is straight petroleum distillate, although some places sell various biodiesel blends, usually 5% or less. Most current diesel engines are spec'd to run on up to 20% biodiesel, and older mechanically injected diesels that have proper compatible fuel hoses and seals can run on 100% biodiesel. This is hindered by availability though. There used to be a place here in Gilbert AZ that pumped both blends and 100% biodiesel. I ran my truck on 100% a few times and noticed no real difference other than a slight loss of mileage and the occasional smell of burning paper. They lied; I was told it was supposed to smell like french fries, but it never did :-(




    What are your sources for this?
    Again, DuckDuckGo. Of course, you are going to find a lot of conflicting "evidence" and debate. And as I mentioned, proponents like to overlook the end-of-life waste factor.

    All vehicles, combustion or electric, become more ecologically friendly the longer they are kept in service because you don't have the energy usage and environmental impact of manufacturing a new vehicle to replace it. Automobiles are one of the few large purchases that we treat as essentially disposable. This is due to both the auto industry and our own affluence as a society. Auto makers are in the business of making and selling cars. They WANT them to be short-lived and disposable. They don't want vehicles that can be continually repaired and modified as needed to get decades of life while still meeting newer emissions standards. We do this with other vehicles: aircraft, watercraft, heavy machinery and class 5 and up trucks all live far longer lives than autos and light trucks. The reason is replacement cost vs cost of repair, routine maintenance, and occasional overhaul or replacement of engines and transmissions. Even in the case of a class 5-8 truck, you can in-frame overhaul the engine, install a remanufactured transmission, replace all suspension wear items, replace the seats and other worn interior components, and give it a fresh paint job tor 1/5th the cost of a new truck. They typically don't get replaced until they are either damaged beyond economical repair or are otherwise no longer capable of fulfilling their needed role. Same goes for heavy machinery. Aircraft aren't retired until the airframes are past their service lives and no longer economically repairable. Machine tools are likewise used until they are no longer economically repairable or no longer serve the needed requirements. You can still find 70 year old machines being used in manufacturing today. And I'm not necessarily talking multi-million dollar machines; even small machines that could be replaced with new Chinese junk for 5 grand are still kept in service because it's cheaper to do so... and because they're still better than Chinese junk! Autos and light trucks, OTOH, seldom live longer than 20 years because they're designed to be disposable. Most people who buy new cars keep them 3-7 years before they trade 'em in for the next shiny new object. It's incredibly wasteful, but nobody seems to notice or care. Not even environmentalists.

    Anyhoo, back on topic. I think Bloomberg needs to borrow my soap box for the next DNC primary debate
    Last edited by MaxPF; 02-20-2020 at 10:47 AM.
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    Interesting how just two days ago I read an article about how Tesla treats their cars as consumable electronics instead of automobiles, and following in the practise of Apple in 1. Making their **** very difficult to repair and 2. Block access to replacement parts by keeping a tight net on suppliers. This resulted in insurance companies scrapping repairable cars just due to those two points, and even if someone goes through the process of actually getting the parts and repairing the vehicle, and getting certified by Tesla for the matter, they still get blocked from access to certain features such as supercharging.
    I also read about how people are complaining about Tesla removing updates such as autonomous driving from vehicles after they are sold to a new owner arguing that those new owners have to pay for it independently and its non transferrable.
    Anyway, this obviously is a problem as it makes those cars have a significant higher probability to be scrapped way before they break even with environmental emissions making them worse to the environment!
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