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Bears Ears

deserth3

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,069
Location
Conroe, TX
Hey Neo, just saw that Obama has declared a big chuck of land near you as Bears Ears National Monument.
How does that affect things down there. Looks like it may take out Seven Mile Rim and everything else on that side of the high way.
What day the great and powerful Neo???

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f5moab

Mr. Beretta
Messages
1,986
Location
Hiding in a potato patch in Idaho
If they kept to the original proposed areas it runs somewhere south from Shafer Basin (Potash road area, and a few miles west of hwy 191 so 7-mile rim should not be included. And "should" not affect any trails off of Kane Creek such as Moab Rim, Cliff Hanger, Pritchett, Chicken Corners but could affect Lockhart Basin (for those who remember, that's the nasty canyon were yours truly broke his arm), but do not believe it will actually be closed, but who really knows.

The bears ears are actually two buttes seen from hwy 95 that runs from Blanding over to Glen Canyon area. There is a road that goes through the Bears Ears butts up into the Abajo mountains (west of Monticello UT).

It goes south to encompass Cedar Mesa.

It will affect Beef Basin area and probably Lockhart Basin that runs south from the Shafer basin area to hwy 211 (hwy into Canyonlands Needles district south of Moab).

It appears from reading the morons proclamation that it will be controlled by the BLM and the USFS (due to the lands designated on controlled by the BLM and the USFS) which is a heck of a lot better than being controlled by the National Park service (at least from the point of view of the off-roading community). This would mean that many of the roads will not be closed will remain open to off-roading.
(Odumbo's statement on control...

"[FONT=&amp]The Secretaries, through the BLM and USFS, shall establish an advisory committee under the Federal Advisory Committee Act (5 U.S.C. App.) to provide information and advice regarding the development of the management plan and, as appropriate, management of the monument."[/FONT]

A national monument designation run by the BLM will primarily shut down future oil and gas, and potash an other mining endeavors. Existing mining functions like Potash (which is very big in that area; especially in the Canyon Rims areas south of Moab (basically east of the Colorado river, east of Hwy 191, south of Hwy 46, north of hwy 211).

But the BLM and usually the USFS does not shut down all trails, does not outlaw dogs and allows camping, unlike the National Park service that shutd down most trails, cannot stand dogs except in organized campground or on main roads and does not allow any type of dispersed camping. (Good example is the Grand Staircase Escalante National Monument in southern UT that is BLM controlled. Most trails remained open (yes some were closed), and the big thing they did was to shut down coal mining in the Kaiparowitz Plateau. You can still disperse camp in many areas, climb and do some off-roading.)

I also heard they are going to rename the area...ODUMBO's Ears...
bucky.jpg

I'll see if I can find a map....
 
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Neo

Badfish
Messages
1,658
Location
Brookings, OR
Just another land grab by the feds is what i hear, a lot of natives are against it too from what has been in the papers... hope it doesn't effect anything here in Moab. only time will tell....
 

f5moab

Mr. Beretta
Messages
1,986
Location
Hiding in a potato patch in Idaho
One of my very conservative friends at the BLM office sent me a link to the BLM map....
The big pusher of this was the UTE and Navajo tribes, along with groups like SUWA (southern UT wilderness association). UTEs cause they have a reservation in the Abajo and I believe encompasses the Bears Ears, and the Navajo since the northern border of Monument Valley borders on the new monument.

https://www.blm.gov/sites/blm.gov/files/documents/files/Utah_final.pdf

Some more info...
https://www.blm.gov/sites/blm.gov/files/documents/files/BE QA Fast Facts_0.pdf

These maps show the Bears ears borders, and the proposed state suggestion for the monument, and the proposed tribal lands proposed map.

The state proposal would have gone further north, and the area proposed by the tribes would have gone further east.

https://www.blm.gov/sites/blm.gov/files/documents/files/maps comparison.pdf

And if you are really bored, here is a list of all the letters from those who supported the monument from the tribes to local business owners....
https://www.blm.gov/sites/blm.gov/files/documents/files/Selected Bears Ears Support.pdf


Does not appear to affect any of the off-road trails normally driven except for those south of Moab. So it is better than the Canyonlands National Monument that SUWA was pushing for (and probably still is).
 
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woodwardsh3

Well-Known Member
Messages
501
Location
Oakland Co. Mi.
Why is it the American goverment kiss every foreigners a-ss from ever angel, But are Great American indians what's left of them, the government treats them like the red headed step child.
 

Neo

Badfish
Messages
1,658
Location
Brookings, OR
How will this effect logging in the Abajo Mtns? that's the question... or is this why they logged the crap out of it the last few years... logs are going to the pulp mill now, at least they were in Nov.
 

deserth3

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,069
Location
Conroe, TX
The maps I saw looked different. But that's no surprise. The maps I saw made it look like the park was between I-70 and Moab.

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deserth3

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,069
Location
Conroe, TX
Seems like a good thing, protecting the environment. What's the issue in a nut-shell?
What seems to happen the last few years is these places become heavily used and the locals are kicked off their land.
There's a show called Last Alaskans that is an example of this.

As for usage, this may decrease as the economy finally improves under Trump.
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f5moab

Mr. Beretta
Messages
1,986
Location
Hiding in a potato patch in Idaho
Seems like a good thing, protecting the environment. What's the issue in a nut-shell?

First I will say the lands need to be protected. I love traveling the roads in the west, the views, the fact that there is not anyone around for miles (except when followed by a bunch of Hummers), the wildlife, etc. And I don’t necessarily trust the states to manage the land either. There are many examples of how the state has closed off-roads, and allowed building on a piece of land we all wish would have remained free of any obstructions. (Lion’s back is a great example for those living or have visited Moab. It was closed by the States school trust…and I hear they are actually getting ready to build.

I used to live east of the MS and in fact, MI. However after moving and living in UT for six year, and now ID for two I have a different view of things.
How would it be if you lived in Grand Rapids and all the land surrounding the city was Federal and it was up to the Federal government to allow passage on the roads and the state could not use the land for uses such as building, oil/gas/ mining etc.?

What you don’t really realize, until you come out here is that the Federal government already owns 70% of Utah (whereas in MI it is 10%) and NV is 85%.

That is a high percentage of the state that needs Federal approvals for doing anything on that land, whether it is off-road trails, mining, oil/gas, taking a poop, etc. And that is a lot of land that the state cannot exercise their rights on and allow building, mining, etc., thus cutting their tax base.

UT did receive 37 Million dollars in payment from the federal government in 2016 from a program called Payment in Lieu of Taxes due to the lands controlled by the Federal government that the states/local governments cannot collect taxes on. The figure is based on many factors such as loss of mining, taxes, oil/gas drilling, etc., and is complicated. But it does not come close to the amount the state was not allowed to collect.

Yes, places like Moab depend on tourism to keep the economy alive; however due to tourism, the costs of living in Moab are way too expensive for many to get by. (I have often thought Moab would have been better off if it remained a Uranium and Copper mining town. I say that because the tourists drove me crazy….except for those who I know.)

The monument designation will affect some of the off-road trails, but not many. It will probably affect the lumber industry in the Abajo Mountains, but I do believe they will have to continue to do fuel management of the forests to keep down the likelihood of a large forest fire; or at least I would hope so. But that will be the USFS problems.

From talking with a few at the BLM office in Moab (which is also the office for the Canyon Country district (which I used to work for) that encompasses the entire monument area, (minus the USFS lands), it appears many items will have to be decided upon in the future. But they want to keep the impact to the minimum for off-roaders, hikers, bikers, rafters, basically tourists and the tourist industry.

A lot of the future input to the Monument will be from the new administration and who is appointed to the high positions. The guy from MT who Trump has nominated for Secretary of the Interior will be over the BLM. I have heard from a friend in MT who personally knows him that he tends to be a person who does not want to close down the lands for use and believes they are there to be used by everyone. And he is an avid hunter and an ex-Navy Seal. But a lot will boil down to who is placed into the position of the head of the BLM.

Right now the Dept of Interior is run by a complete moronic environmentalist, so we will all have to sit back and see what happens in the future. She will be gone in less than a month.
Personally, I do not believe there will be that much effect on the Moab off-road community. As I noted earlier, a monument controlled by the BLM and in this case it appears the BLM and the USFS is nowhere as bad as it would be if controlled by the National Park Service.

As I noted before the NFS would close trails, not allow dogs to be in the backcountry areas (even in a vehicle), would limit camping areas and just generally be an entity that exercises too much control over the lands. The BLM and the USFS tend not to have problems with dogs so long as they are kept under control, and in the case of the BLM, usually closes roads with input from the local governments.

Basically, everyone I know out here wants to keep the majority of the lands like they are, but also believe in States’ rights to have some say in the matter of the lands. In the case of Moab and the BLM, the BLM did work with the local governments on most of the off-road areas in Grand County. Whereas with a monument they might not works together that great.

The one big thing that a monument inhibits is any new mining, oil/gas drilling.

Maps might help show how much lands states actually have control of. Between the BLM, Forest Service, National Parks, Department of Defense, Fish and Wildlife some of the western states have very little control over the lands.

Eastern States Federal lands
fed%20lands%20eastern%20states_zpsircfyxx6.jpg~original


Western States Federal Lands
Fed%20lands%20western%20states_zpshuywk6px.jpg~original


Alaska/Hawaii Federal Lands
Fed%20lands%20AK%20HI_zps05sl9iid.jpg~original
 

f5moab

Mr. Beretta
Messages
1,986
Location
Hiding in a potato patch in Idaho
The maps I saw looked different. But that's no surprise. The maps I saw made it look like the park was between I-70 and Moab.

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That was probably the state initiative under Bishop. They wanted to go north of I70 with their idea. But I believe their idea would not have affected off-roading that much either.

(So, how are the black dogs doing?)
1079675epidtzhcjx_zpsb2ad9d12.gif~original
 

deserth3

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,069
Location
Conroe, TX
(So, how are the black dogs doing?)

They're doing good. Hans is still hanging in there and with the arthritis he's up to 145 pounds. He'll be turning 10 this winter. Roxy will be 5 in February. She's still all mine and gets jealous of I let another dog.
IMG_20161225_080110125_BURST000_COVER_TOP.jpg


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Neo

Badfish
Messages
1,658
Location
Brookings, OR
glad to see all the dogs are happy, i didn't realize how much of Idaho was Fed. looks like 50% on that map, i thought Utah had it bad...
 

f5moab

Mr. Beretta
Messages
1,986
Location
Hiding in a potato patch in Idaho
(So, how are the black dogs doing?)

They're doing good. Hans is still hanging in there and with the arthritis he's up to 145 pounds. He'll be turning 10 this winter. Roxy will be 5 in February. She's still all mine and gets jealous of I let another dog.
View attachment 21610




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Mine still play in the snow...
jacksontiain-snow-web.jpg
 

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