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USMC_315
10-04-2017, 01:29 PM
GM recently announced that they're going to be moving towards an all-"green" line up across the board for their company by, if I remember correctly, 2025. While I'm not a fan of that move and probably won't purchase autos from GM, I would be absolutely ecstatic for one product.... an all electric Hummer. We've already seen companies start to modify H1's into hybrids or full fledged "green machines", and they were good enough to interest the Governator himself to buy one. Not having to deal with the negative light for being a gas guzzling behemoth might give GM enough wiggle room to start bringing back the brand and dip their hand into the offroad market once again.

What do you guys think? Would you purchase an all electric or hybrid Hummer (H1, H2, or H3)? Do you think GM will overlook the idea to reach a very loyal and passionate niche that is making Chrysler and Ford 100's of millions of dollars?

cgalpha08
10-04-2017, 02:24 PM
It's not feasible. Battery tech isn't capable of holding a meaningful charge. I for one refuse to buy an electric vehicle, I'd rather buy older and older cars just to have a has engine lol

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USMC_315
10-04-2017, 02:34 PM
It's not feasible. Battery tech isn't capable of holding a meaningful charge. I for one refuse to buy an electric vehicle, I'd rather buy older and older cars just to have a has engine lol

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Not at the moment, but for the very near future. It wouldn't take the long, all it would require would be a car manufacturer that wants to move to all electric and has the funds to do so. Also, just look at Tesla and you can see what those electric cars can do, just food for thought...

https://www.trucks.com/2017/10/03/general-motors-hydrogen-fuel-cell-electric-truck/

cgalpha08
10-04-2017, 02:36 PM
Not at the moment, but for the very near future. It wouldn't take the long, all it would require would be a car manufacturer that wants to move to all electric and has the funds to do so. Also, just look at Tesla and you can see what those electric cars can do, just food for thought...

https://www.trucks.com/2017/10/03/general-motors-hydrogen-fuel-cell-electric-truck/All good points, but until I can drive across the country without having to stop for an extended period of time to recharge, I'm not drinking the kool aid. Plus who doesn't like the good old rumble of a v8, or gas engine in general.

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rascole
10-04-2017, 04:21 PM
Diesel hybrid maybe but never an electric, tech is not there yet. 5 days to cross the country?

skeptic
10-04-2017, 11:06 PM
It's not feasible. Battery tech isn't capable of holding a meaningful charge. I for one refuse to buy an electric vehicle, I'd rather buy older and older cars just to have a has engine lol

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That's not really correct, IMHO. The problem is charge time, weight and cost, not range (mostly). http://bollingermotors.com/ Not really a Hummer replacement, but it is a big SUV with up to 200 miles range, a 0-60 time of under 5 seconds and some cool design features.

I do agree that battery tech isn't quite there yet. Once something like graphene superconductors or glass (solid state) batteries or whatever the next big breakthrough is makes it to mass production, the industry will turn on a dime. Forget about Hummers for a minute, consider when the EV version of any vehicle will cost roughly the same as the gas version with a similar range and ability to re-charge in a reasonable time for a fraction of the cost. Throw in the same or better performance and significantly reduced maintenance costs. The big question is what is "reasonable time" for re-charging. 5 minutes? 20 minutes?

The lack of v8 sounds will be missed for sure, but I'll trade improved performance, lower running costs and increased convenience (re-charging stations at home, restaurants, banks, stores and soon to be more plentiful than gas stations).

GM isn't the only, or even the first, to talk about a move to all electric vehicles. I think Volvo was the first, but most or all manufacturers are greatly expanding EVs. Hand in hand, countries (and California) are talking about and preparing to ban all vehicles other than zero-emission vehicles. It doesn't matter what we want, in the not too distant future EVs will be the best or only option.

cgalpha08
10-05-2017, 06:52 AM
That's not really correct, IMHO. The problem is charge time, weight and cost, not range (mostly). http://bollingermotors.com/ Not really a Hummer replacement, but it is a big SUV with up to 200 miles range, a 0-60 time of under 5 seconds and some cool design features.

I do agree that battery tech isn't quite there yet. Once something like graphene superconductors or glass (solid state) batteries or whatever the next big breakthrough is makes it to mass production, the industry will turn on a dime. Forget about Hummers for a minute, consider when the EV version of any vehicle will cost roughly the same as the gas version with a similar range and ability to re-charge in a reasonable time for a fraction of the cost. Throw in the same or better performance and significantly reduced maintenance costs. The big question is what is "reasonable time" for re-charging. 5 minutes? 20 minutes?

The lack of v8 sounds will be missed for sure, but I'll trade improved performance, lower running costs and increased convenience (re-charging stations at home, restaurants, banks, stores and soon to be more plentiful than gas stations).

GM isn't the only, or even the first, to talk about a move to all electric vehicles. I think Volvo was the first, but most or all manufacturers are greatly expanding EVs. Hand in hand, countries (and California) are talking about and preparing to ban all vehicles other than zero-emission vehicles. It doesn't matter what we want, in the not too distant future EVs will be the best or only option.

There is no doubt the tech is coming, i'm just not happy about it. There is a whole infrastructure side to it that will need to catch up. It just doesn't appeal to me.

As far as the recharge time goes. It would have to be a full charge in about the same time as i already spend on a gas station. So think refilling from empty to full, somewhere in the 25-30 gallons that modern trucks/suvs have, so say 15 min or so, maybe a few more if i go to the bathroom and get a soda. I think the current time to fully charge a tesla is around 75 min? quick google search popped out that number. Sure tesla has managed to break the 300 mile range on a charge, but that's not that impressive considering my dads ford truck will go 700 miles on a single tank (yea that pushing it i know, point still stands though).

Just saying, yes its coming, it'll come down to the bottom dollar amount, and if its cheaper to own for the average consumer the industry will take off.

And then there is the electrical grid side of things to consider to meet the demand of that much more electrical draw. Now if more electrical cars means more nuclear power plants, sign me up.

That electric SUV thing does look pretty cool btw, not sure how well it would fare in repeated water crossings lol

Kick'n Dust
10-05-2017, 08:24 AM
Well talked with my coworkers this morning and all we heard is from the media. GM hasn't said anything at the dealership level yet as far as I know. Though I think I'm going to start taking more hybrid/electric and diesel training. Commercial diesel isn't going anywhere. Maybe I need to update my resume lol

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Ghostbuster
10-05-2017, 12:42 PM
I think they should bring back the H3 and make the HX. Redo the H3 interior, maybe do a small redesign of the exterior, install a new transmission, 2wd/4wd t case. Make the base engine the 3.6l v6 from the Canyons and Colorados. Provide the diesel option from the Canyons and Colorados, also the new 5.3l v8 and 6.2l v8.

Then make certain body parts out of aluminum to save weight.

You could easily get 25-30 mpg highway with something like that.

That would be great for a highly capable 4 door off road suv. I would hope for an upgrade to the IFS and front diff.

They could do this type of stuff right now.

Also, build the HX with the same drivetrain and powertrain as the ďnewĒ H3.

I think that these could rival the Jeep Wranglers. It would definitely cut into their sales.

But if you want to talk about futuristic stuff like electric Trucks and SUVs... then I think something more like a Prius system would be implemented first along with weight saving measures. Before battery tech catches up.



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Mb30sdl
10-05-2017, 05:19 PM
U can't beat electrical acceleration, recently wife drove her old GL450 after driving Tesla for over a year. In her words it was a different experience "you step on gas and nothing happens for a while". We kept old car to see if full electric is something u can leave with and it's working just great for her.

charging is something that needs to be greately improved, specialy for long trips. On other hand on the way to Yellowstone Lambo Aventador passed me on H2 with loaded trailer 3 times between OC and Vegas. He needed to fill up, where I made it on one tank.

skeptic
10-05-2017, 06:55 PM
There is no doubt the tech is coming, i'm just not happy about it. There is a whole infrastructure side to it that will need to catch up. It just doesn't appeal to me.
I hear this a lot, but I don't really understand. Current tech, sure, but electric will get to the point where it's better in every conceivable way just without the loud engine noises. I'll even go so far as to say at some point people will not understand why anyone would want a loud smelly combustion engine when electric is so nice and quiet.

As for infrastructure, that's probably farther along than you realize. Certainly there is quite a bit to go, but adding a charging station is trivial compared to gas stations. You can add a charging station any place with electricity, and in theory, any place you can install a solar array.

https://www.plugshare.com/



As far as the recharge time goes. It would have to be a full charge in about the same time as i already spend on a gas station. So think refilling from empty to full, somewhere in the 25-30 gallons that modern trucks/suvs have, so say 15 min or so, maybe a few more if i go to the bathroom and get a soda. I think the current time to fully charge a tesla is around 75 min? quick google search popped out that number. Sure tesla has managed to break the 300 mile range on a charge, but that's not that impressive considering my dads ford truck will go 700 miles on a single tank (yea that pushing it i know, point still stands though).
Yep. I'd even be ok with a 200 mile range if recharging time was similar to filling your tank.



Just saying, yes its coming, it'll come down to the bottom dollar amount, and if its cheaper to own for the average consumer the industry will take off.

And then there is the electrical grid side of things to consider to meet the demand of that much more electrical draw. Now if more electrical cars means more nuclear power plants, sign me up.

That electric SUV thing does look pretty cool btw, not sure how well it would fare in repeated water crossings lol
You hit a major issue that very few people talk about - what happens when everyone has an EV but the electric grid can't keep up? I don't know, but I do think solar panels + battery banks at home can make a huge impact if enough people install them.


I think they should bring back the H3 and make the HX. Redo the H3 interior, maybe do a small redesign of the exterior, install a new transmission, 2wd/4wd t case. Make the base engine the 3.6l v6 from the Canyons and Colorados. Provide the diesel option from the Canyons and Colorados, also the new 5.3l v8 and 6.2l v8.
<snip>
They could do this type of stuff right now.


I'm hoping GM comes out with a Trailblazer (or whatever they want to call it) based on the Colorado. Even though one based on the current Colorado ZR2 wouldn't be as capable as an H3 Adventure, it would be good enough for most and be a great starting point.

cgalpha08
10-06-2017, 06:56 AM
As for infrastructure, that's probably farther along than you realize. Certainly there is quite a bit to go, but adding a charging station is trivial compared to gas stations. You can add a charging station any place with electricity, and in theory, any place you can install a solar array.

You hit a major issue that very few people talk about - what happens when everyone has an EV but the electric grid can't keep up? I don't know, but I do think solar panels + battery banks at home can make a huge impact if enough people install them.

I'm hoping GM comes out with a Trailblazer (or whatever they want to call it) based on the Colorado. Even though one based on the current Colorado ZR2 wouldn't be as capable as an H3 Adventure, it would be good enough for most and be a great starting point.

Yea i'm not too concerned with charging stations and that kind of infrastructure, as you said its pretty easy to add that to what already exists, 100% agree there.

My concern, as you mentioned, is the grid. With the current push to phase out coal, and the general movement away from fossil fuels, its going to be difficult to keep up with demand without some sort of major reliable power generation. I can see solar panels+ wind with a combination of batteries being used to store energy and then used during peak hours and peak demand throughout the day, especially as battery tech improves. For the long term though IMO nuclear is the way to go fix this issue. The problem is that they are very expensive to build, and no one wants to have one near them due to mis-conceptions from three mile, Chernobyl and the Japan plant. On the upside though the actual price per MWh is relatively cheap, cheaper than coal, not necessarily as cheap as natural gas (depending on what price gas is trading at). And then there are the actual transmission lines, to put it simply, more will have to be built.

I work for energy trading/power marketing firm, and we deal with this on daily basis. Heck on a hot summers day with everyone pumping their A/C units we struggle, can only imagine what plugging in a few million EV cars would do lol

Agreed, GM needs a small SUV that can compete with the likes of the 4runner, Wrangler, etc. That market is huge and they are trying to tap into into again with the ZR2. I haven't driven one, but I read somewhere that they went with another weird diff again and aftermarket companies aren't ready to support it. Pure speculation from random internet comments lol

Hunner
10-06-2017, 11:29 AM
All good points, but until I can drive across the country without having to stop for an extended period of time to recharge, I'm not drinking the kool aid. Plus who doesn't like the good old rumble of a v8, or gas engine in general.

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There is an app for that! They will probably make an option to have the sound, lol

At one time there was an H3 converted by some company that claimed it was the future.

Kick'n Dust
10-06-2017, 01:09 PM
The ZR2 is an expensive truck for what it is. The few I've seen on our lot run about 48k. I only paid 15k for my H3 when I bought it years ago. The price for these new Chevy trucks is ridiculous. I'll just put the parts I want on my H3 and make repairs when necessary until I can't get parts anymore. Body panels, trim and interior parts are what would become hard to find. The drivetrain can all be replaced with anything I desire. I'm hoping companies like LMC Truck will provide parts for the Hummer line like the do for Chevy, Ford and Dodge.

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Acer4LO
10-08-2017, 12:05 PM
Personally I think when it comes to wheeling, the simpler, the better. Not sure how the batteries would mix if you get stuck while water fording.

skeptic
10-08-2017, 12:42 PM
Better than sucking air into the intake I'd imagine. Cars get flooded all the time, it's not good for any car but EV battery banks are well protected from punctures and water and whatever else. Less moving parts, fewer sensors etc. I'd guess EVs probably deal with flooding better than ICE cars.

H3V8
10-09-2017, 11:14 AM
While I would miss the sound of the v8, I would certainly be interested in an electric hummer if it had similar or better offroad performance. My biggest gripe with electrics is the range and recharging. It would be nice to be able to charge the car overnight while I sleep and have a full tank the next morning, but what about when I want to do something other than commuting? 200-300 mile range would be acceptable if there were charging stations all over and it only took a minute or two to recharge.

What about battery-version jerry cans that I can use if I happen to need a bit more electricity to make it back to town?

Looks like the trend by manufacturers is moving towards cross-overs, so I would be surprised if we saw any new hummers ever.

skeptic
10-10-2017, 10:09 PM
While I would miss the sound of the v8, I would certainly be interested in an electric hummer if it had similar or better offroad performance. My biggest gripe with electrics is the range and recharging. It would be nice to be able to charge the car overnight while I sleep and have a full tank the next morning, but what about when I want to do something other than commuting? 200-300 mile range would be acceptable if there were charging stations all over and it only took a minute or two to recharge.

What about battery-version jerry cans that I can use if I happen to need a bit more electricity to make it back to town?

Looks like the trend by manufacturers is moving towards cross-overs, so I would be surprised if we saw any new hummers ever.

Right now pretty much the only car that fits this is a Chevy Volt or the recently discontinued Cadillac ELR. Pure EV for the first 50 or so miles then continue to drive with a gas engine keeping the batteries charged. Unlike something like the i3 which goes into a kind of hybrid limp mode , when the Volt goes into hybrid mode you can keep driving normally.

Maria80386
10-12-2017, 08:36 AM
Electric is ok, but I'd rather see GM continue with their fuel cell SUVs. Obamacare killed that program, the week before I was to get a fuel cell Equinox for a month.

skeptic
10-13-2017, 11:51 PM
Meh. Fuel cell was a failure before it began.

twinmill28
10-15-2017, 01:55 AM
I'm on the fence with new cars overall---love the great mileage and hey, who doesn't like a new car.

OTH--I hate that manufacturers control updates to your vehicle which may impact performance over economy and also has access to see how/where the vehicle is driven and is gaining even more control over your ability to mod your vehicle.

I've got two 1970 cars in the garage and love how stupid simple they are and don't feel that somebody is monitoring what that vehicle does every time I drive it. BUT........when you drive a bright ass purple 70 Dodge Challenger you can't be fooled into thinking it blends in and doesn't get noticed either! And I know there are pictures being taken every time it goes out of the garage--so much for trying not to get noticed! Everybody in this town knows this car and amazes me every time I meet some one I don't know but they know who I am.....

LagunaH1
10-25-2017, 10:37 PM
I'd be interested in an offroad vehicle which was all electric, if the motors were integrated with the wheels. Imagine the torque management and traction control one could build that way. -On the other hand, I also imagine the unsprung weight would be pretty significant

SuperBuickGuy
10-29-2017, 07:52 PM
You missed the bit about GM building hydrogen Colorados? there is no way GM is doing Hummer again, they may make another SUV with the ZR2 package, but your only hope would be it would be a Hummer by GMC (or Cadillac).... it'd be a badge, not a brand. In any case, there is no chance they build it.

Shortbus
01-06-2018, 10:45 PM
Would rather run veggie oil in an older H1..or deuce and a half (Multifuel)

MilamJR
01-01-2020, 11:23 AM
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200101/fe4094934826dfe2f95a82e5ed0b724f.jpg
This looks pretty cool. Also, here is a link to a video that talks about the history of the Hummer brand and possible future.

https://youtu.be/TixhSEGJt3k


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f5moab
01-01-2020, 06:00 PM
Video is only what he thinks, what he likes, what his opinions are. GM will really listen to them....NOT! But good for a life during a blizzard.

f5moab
01-01-2020, 06:04 PM
There is an app for that! They will probably make an option to have the sound, lol

At one time there was an H3 converted by some company that claimed it was the future.

Yes, and GM turned them away due to their limited production numbers and the fact they wanted GM to make some expensive modifications to the engine compartment and GM said NOPE. Due to limited volume it would have cost way too much and that was right around the time GM was sitting on zero dollars and headed into the courts to declare bankruptcy.
They had on in Moab for a car show one year.
Some great idea, but again, wrong time, wrong vehicle.

MilamJR
01-10-2020, 04:20 PM
Video is only what he thinks, what he likes, what his opinions are. GM will really listen to them....NOT! But good for a life during a blizzard.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200110/f999009c0bcea464c6ab085a159e1652.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200110/f999009c0bcea464c6ab085a159e1652.jpg
Looks like the Hummer brand is making a return.


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MilamJR
01-10-2020, 04:26 PM
The article says GM has hired Labron James to do a commercial for the Super Bowl next month. It will be an all electric truck sold at GMC dealerships and marketed to off-road enthusiasts.


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08H3
01-10-2020, 05:21 PM
Well, I guess the devil is wearing ice skates and pigs are racking up frequent flier miles. I never thought it would happen.

Exodus
01-10-2020, 06:24 PM
I live out in the sticks in Alaska .Electric 100% impractical for most up here

MilamJR
01-10-2020, 06:31 PM
I live out in the sticks in Alaska .Electric 100% impractical for most up here

I guess you can use solar panels to recharge where if you run out of gas you canít make your own.


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MilamJR
01-10-2020, 07:54 PM
Here is a video and it talks about a SUV to be released a year later.

https://youtu.be/M32aUD95vF8


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cgalpha08
01-10-2020, 08:54 PM
IMO unless they make the body and suspension the way the made our (current) models, itll be eh. The hope would be they just pick up where they left off except electric. Thay way suspension, body, and other accessories could be used for our model rigs. Since its probably gonna be entirely new, I dont see it being that value added to us, the hummer cult following

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MilamJR
01-10-2020, 09:08 PM
IMO unless they make the body and suspension the way the made our (current) models, itll be eh. The hope would be they just pick up where they left off except electric. Thay way suspension, body, and other accessories could be used for our model rigs. Since its probably gonna be entirely new, I dont see it being that value added to us, the hummer cult following

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I think just like a 2003 and a 2022 Chevy truck they arenít going to be the same. Built to accomplish the same job more efficiently and with similar styling cues but that is about it.


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JPaul
01-10-2020, 09:16 PM
Think of how long you can winch off a battery that big though. Not going to go anywhere else afterwards, but still.

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cgalpha08
01-11-2020, 01:46 AM
I think just like a 2003 and a 2022 Chevy truck they arenít going to be the same. Built to accomplish the same job more efficiently and with similar styling cues but that is about it.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkYea and that's kinda what I'm trying to get at. While it's cool and whatnot that hummer will be back and in the spot light again, I dont think it means much for helping us out and the used hummer market out with part etc....because the new one is so differnt.

I am excited to see what it will look like but that's about it for me.

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4speedfunk
01-14-2020, 07:33 AM
Here we go again. GM is launching another half-baked attempt at re-badging a turd because they cannot come up with something fresh. That horse (Hummer) is completely decomposed...so quit beating it!

As if Shakira and J-Lo werenít enough reason to switch off the halftime show...rumor has it the new (but not really) Hummer will be unveiled at the Superbowl.

One word: RIVIAN

3Hummers
01-14-2020, 09:44 AM
I will never have a vehicle with a 200-250 mile range, gas or electric. Even my F-350 crew cab diesel 4x4 dually has a range of over 700 miles. I have a hard time seeing an electric 4x4 with the weight of the batteries. I guess it would be hard to roll and electric hummer with all of the weight so low. Water crossings could be exciting. I guess if I needed something to tool around town in it might work. The acceleration is impressive for some of the models but electric isn't where it needs to be to get me interested. As to an all electric Hummer....they killed the brand, they abused the brand and the previous Owners with how they killed the brand. Whatever they bring back won't be a Hummer, it will be something else. ( Ford badging an SUV as a Mustang doesn't make it a Mustang to 99% of the car buying public, it is a crass money grubbing move to try to cash in on the Mustang name ) GM tried to do the same in a limited fashion when they were marketing the Tahoe/Suburban as having "spirit of Hummer".

JPaul
01-14-2020, 04:34 PM
Maybe it was the spirit of Hummer like the tormented spirits in Japanese horror?

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EndeavoredH3
01-14-2020, 04:34 PM
Spy shot!
25677

Korby7
01-14-2020, 04:46 PM
I just threw up a little in my mouth.

MilamJR
01-14-2020, 04:50 PM
I just threw up a little in my mouth.

I have seen some pictures/artists drawings that look pretty good. That picture is definitely not one of them.


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EndeavoredH3
01-14-2020, 04:58 PM
I have seen some pictures/artists drawings that look pretty good. That picture is definitely not one of them

I think I remember these were offered in Europe as a 3rd part kit car deal. Ive also enjoyed the prediction drawings. We’ll see if they ruin it or actually do something with it.

Korby7
01-14-2020, 06:20 PM
I hope they come with something a little more HUMMER than that. That looks like a Hummer X did it with a Smart car.

deserth3
01-14-2020, 09:35 PM
Was reading they are supposed to release the new Hummer during the Superbowl.

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Zach
01-15-2020, 12:19 AM
Hell YEAH!!! But, better bring a very long extension cord for those days on the trail that seem to never end with breakage and issues [emoji15]

3Hummers
01-15-2020, 09:15 AM
Zach as big as the Hummer roof is they could just put a couple of large solar panels on it or make the roof into a solar panel.

deserth3
01-15-2020, 10:20 AM
My guess it'll be closer to the size of a Geo Tracker.[emoji33]

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amrg
01-15-2020, 01:51 PM
Well hope they make a proper offroad vehicle that mimics the Rivian!
4 electric motors, waterproof with huge water fording depth and big tires/clearance!

5gn-h3t
01-15-2020, 11:41 PM
A friend of mine who works for GM texted me tonight and told me this is for real. A GMC HUMMER. Electric with the possibility of gas/diesel in the future.

EndeavoredH3
01-16-2020, 01:38 AM
A friend of mine who works for GM texted me tonight and told me this is for real. A GMC HUMMER. Electric with the possibility of gas/diesel in the future.

Hell yeah! I’m getting excited to what they did with the design. Hopefully they go all out this time and go for Jeep. With the brand now being under GMC it’ll be less likely for them to cut it like they did in 2010, hopefully.

5gn-h3t
01-16-2020, 09:46 AM
Now I wonder what the price point will be.

MaxPF
01-23-2020, 05:41 AM
I'm sure an all-electric Hummer will be a huge hit with the expedition crowd... not. There's an excellent vid on Youtube on why electric for trucks (pickups, not just HD trucks) is a non-starter. Pretty much the same reasons as why you won't see jet airliners with wings full of lithium batteries. Electrics make sense for commutermobiles and perhaps even some in-town delivery trucks, but the high energy density of liquid fuels, rapid refueling, relative safety, technological maturity, extreme recyclability of combustion engine drivetrain components, low cost of manufacture of same, lack of necessity of scarce resources for manufacture of the same, on so on and on, means it will take a massive technological revolution to replace liquid fuel combustion engines with stored electricity. No chemical battery is going to cut it due to some basic limitations of electrochemical storage. Further, motors made with relatively scarce magnet materials isn't really sustainable either. Regular AC induction motors are sustainable (and extremely recycleable), but less efficient, so even more electrical storage (and cooling) would be needed. Even the lithium used for current batteries isn't exactly an abundant resource unless you have the energy to extract it from seawater. LOTS of energy.

I think the realities of current EV tech limitations is becoming more and more apparent to the general public. The sales of electric vehicles hasn't really grown like many thought it would, and will likely shrink as more people wake up and spit out the "anthropogenic global warming" Kool-Aid.

JPaul
01-23-2020, 11:23 AM
MaxPF is exactly right. The kid at my work is convinced that electric vehicles are the dominating future and that there won't be any liquid fuel vehicles in 20 years. He also thinks that battery technology capable of providing super range is just around the corner. It's amazing how difficult it is to try to talk to him about and not even convince him, but simply argue the points to him that liquid fuel is not going away, especially when range matters. I can't be driving even 200 miles over rough roads with an electric vehicle and then either have to detour to find a charging station (even in 10 years you won't find them in remote areas) or have to lug around a trailer just for solar panels and site for a day to charge up.

On top of that, electric vehicles are extremely heavy. The Tesla Model X weighs several hundred to a thousand pounds more than the H3 Alpha does. Even the new Cybertruck is expected to weight at least 5,100 pounds and it looks like it will be just as small as the H3, if not smaller.

Of course this same kid thinks that in 20 years no one will even own their own cars anymore and it'll be massive autonomous public transportation utilizing all electric vehicles. I've gotten old enough now that whenever someone tries to tell me something is "the future" I can't help but roll my eyes and think of how naive they are. Seems to be happening a lot more lately.

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3Hummers
01-23-2020, 03:03 PM
Yeah, I have spoken to a few of the "know it all" youngsters who seem to think we will all be flying around like the Jetsons in a few years.

EndeavoredH3
01-23-2020, 03:46 PM
Yeah, I have spoken to a few of the "know it all" youngsters who seem to think we will all be flying around like the Jetsons in a few years.

If anything, my "youngster" view is that the ICE will be perfected within the next decade or two. The Mazda Gas compression motor seems promising if they can deal with the reliability issues.

I read an article awhile back on the prius, and if I recall correctly it takes over a decade of driving the thing to "break even" with the pollution it takes to make it. And that's taking into consideration the original battery pack lasts.

MaxPF
01-24-2020, 02:49 AM
MaxPF is exactly right. The kid at my work is convinced that electric vehicles are the dominating future and that there won't be any liquid fuel vehicles in 20 years. He also thinks that battery technology capable of providing super range is just around the corner. It's amazing how difficult it is to try to talk to him about and not even convince him, but simply argue the points to him that liquid fuel is not going away, especially when range matters. I can't be driving even 200 miles over rough roads with an electric vehicle and then either have to detour to find a charging station (even in 10 years you won't find them in remote areas) or have to lug around a trailer just for solar panels and site for a day to charge up.

On top of that, electric vehicles are extremely heavy. The Tesla Model X weighs several hundred to a thousand pounds more than the H3 Alpha does. Even the new Cybertruck is expected to weight at least 5,100 pounds and it looks like it will be just as small as the H3, if not smaller.

Of course this same kid thinks that in 20 years no one will even own their own cars anymore and it'll be massive autonomous public transportation utilizing all electric vehicles. I've gotten old enough now that whenever someone tries to tell me something is "the future" I can't help but roll my eyes and think of how naive they are. Seems to be happening a lot more lately.

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The public school system is nothing but a propaganda machine these days. Is it any wonder why young people not only believe these things, but are willing to give up their basic freedoms and give government more power?

I know that we will eventually not be using petroleum as an energy source, but there are many ways to manufacture hydrocarbons and virtually all of them are "carbon neutral". They just require a lot of energy. Windmills and solar panels ain't gonna cut it. Were talking large scale fission and, eventually, fusion thermal plants that can thermally depolymerize huge amounts of farmed algae and waste biomass into synthetic crude oil and syngas. From there we can refine or convert it into our fuel of choice. Conventional (but cleaner) gasoline, diesel, and jet fuel. Or methane. Alcohol. Dimethyl ether. Whatever is determined to be cleanest and most efficient. Of course, with large scale nuclear energy (fission or fusion), relatively cheap hydrogen production would be possible which would allow the use of H2 in internal combustion engines or fuel cell vehicles. Aircraft will still be powered with jet fuel, and ships will still use diesel. Land vehicles will be electric, fuel cell, or internal combustion depending on it's use and purpose. There is no one-size-fits-all solution. There are many possibilities, but people are going to have to get used to the idea of a massive proliferation of nuclear power if we want to maintain our energy-intensive lifestyles, not to mention our population.

amrg
01-24-2020, 04:42 AM
Well 15 years ago, electric cars were low range and slow! Tesla came and showed everyone you can get a 0-60 in 3 seconds and still do 200 mile range. Charging time for electric vehicles is dropping. The aim is to get them to charge in less than 10 minutes from 15-85%.
Supply leads to demand. This means more Money will be invested to get newer batteries that will get better range and allow faster charging!

MaxPF
01-26-2020, 03:52 AM
Well 15 years ago, electric cars were low range and slow! Tesla came and showed everyone you can get a 0-60 in 3 seconds and still do 200 mile range. Charging time for electric vehicles is dropping. The aim is to get them to charge in less than 10 minutes from 15-85%.
Supply leads to demand. This means more Money will be invested to get newer batteries that will get better range and allow faster charging!

It doesn't work like that. You can't always get what you want just because you want it bad enough and pour huge sums of money into it. Often times those pesky laws of physics have something to say about it. While I won't claim that there will never be an energy storage technology that can match a fuel tank for size, weight, cost, longevity, range, time to refill/recharge, recycleability, and safety, I seriously doubt such a storage device will be based on any electrochemical technology. The closest ideal electrochemical technology is an air-breathing fuel cell, but even it has many, many problems which is why those dipping their toes in the EV market have chosen lithium batteries. Even with the massive limitations of the batteries they are still better than current air-breahing fuel cell tech. They really shouldn't be, but they are.

3Hummers
01-30-2020, 08:52 AM
The Hummer will be a model, not a brand, under the GMC banner. GM has released no details to prospective dealers ( not all GMC dealers will sell the Hummer model ). They have not been told trim levels, size, price, weight, range etc other than it will be an EV. There are no plans for a gas or diesel version and it will require that they have different lifts than they currently use. They did not say if this was because of weight or size or both. The dealers on the call were not even told if it was a 2 door 4 door or available in either. They were told that if they wanted to sign up to sell them they needed to get it done and be ready to take deposits after the SuperBowl ad. ( I know they all asked what are we taking deposits for? We don't know price, size, configuration, delivery, colors, trim levels, options.... )
GM was adamant that the "Hummer" was a model, not a brand. They are not resurrecting the brand, only the name to slap on a new vehicle model.

06 H3
01-30-2020, 11:44 AM
Interesting.....

USMC_315
01-30-2020, 01:04 PM
Havenít been on here in quite a long time, but I remembered this post after seeing the teaser trailer GMC just released. Canít believe I inadvertently predicted the future...

PM if you want me to read your fortunes haha

Ghostbuster
01-30-2020, 01:31 PM
This is so retarded. Why sell it under GMC? You already own the ďHummerĒ brand and you arenít doing jack **** with it. Why devalue it by making it a ďmodelĒ?

And why make it all electric? WTF? If people wanted that donít you think JEEP would be doing it? You know since they sell approximately 900k Jeeps a ****ing year.

If they wanted to make money they should redesign the H3 and H3t and maybe think about making an H2 and H2 SUT. I would also bring the HX to market. Maybe even make an HX 4 door to replace the H3 all together.

The powertrains could look something like this:

H3 Hybrid BS to make liberals happy. 3.6L V6 with an electric motor added on.

H3 Alpha with the new 5.3l v8, possibly with an electric motor bolted on. Look at the new Ram truck with the hemi for example. It would also be nice to have the 6.2l v8 as an option.


H2 and SUT with the new 6.2l V8. Maybe bolt an electric motor onto it as well. And have the 6.6L Duramax as an option.

HX: have the same power train options as the H3.


Jeep doesnít have any real competition and I think they could take a bite into that market.

They wouldnít even have to redesign the exteriors that much. Just redesign the interiors.





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bebe
01-30-2020, 01:34 PM
Interesting.....

I agree.

USMC_315
01-30-2020, 01:40 PM
Not sure what type of vehicle they’re going for, but if GM has any sense they’ll do a convertible suv style i.e. Wrangler. That’s the only way to compete in the off-road market with something like this right now IMO

Gunner_45
01-30-2020, 01:59 PM
https://www.hummerguy.net/hummer-news/everything-we-know-about-the-2021-gmc-hummerev-truck-super-bowl-ad

3Hummers
01-30-2020, 07:28 PM
Can't wait to see some idiot launch this thing off an obstacle

rascole
01-30-2020, 08:13 PM
Bottom line is the Hummer EV will be a cash cow for GM or and financial flop. We are a small segment of GM's plans and they don't care about overlanding. I would guess that 90% of overlanders never cover more than 200 miles a trip anyways. I would bet that a hybrid with a 1 liter turbo diesel would be far more popular, virtually same range as a ICE.

twinmill28
01-31-2020, 02:35 AM
Can't wait to see some idiot launch this thing off an obstacle

that’d prolly be me...hope it has some sort of fox type suspension....

amrg
01-31-2020, 05:56 AM
1000 hp? Im guessing 1 motor on each corner, that will probably allow it to have great ground clearance at the center?
Probably be pricey tho

3Hummers
01-31-2020, 09:29 AM
Curious about the clearance. With all the battery weight you would not want them high in the chassis ( COG ) but for clearance you would.

bebe
01-31-2020, 12:02 PM
Yes, and GM turned them away due to their limited production numbers and the fact they wanted GM to make some expensive modifications to the engine compartment and GM said NOPE. Due to limited volume it would have cost way too much and that was right around the time GM was sitting on zero dollars and headed into the courts to declare bankruptcy.
They had on in Moab for a car show one year.
Some great idea, but again, wrong time, wrong vehicle.

2010. That was Raser Technologies, and the engineer for that vehicle is now the engineer for the new GMC Hummer model.

https://www.automobilemag.com/news/raser-technologies-hummer-h3-plugin-concept/

amrg
01-31-2020, 02:08 PM
How times change! Reading that article they expected it to run 40 miles on electric with 0-60 in 9 seconds, today its close to 400 miles and 3 seconds!!!

MaxPF
02-02-2020, 03:14 AM
1000 hp? Im guessing 1 motor on each corner, that will probably allow it to have great ground clearance at the center?
Probably be pricey tho

Like all EV's, that rated HP will be for very brief "sprints". The motors and batteries would rapidly overheat if that output was sustained for any length of time.

And yes, it's going to be a wealthy person's toy. Figure the sticker price north of 100k, a useful battery life of perhaps 150k miles (at which point your 400-mile battery gives you 200 or less miles of range) and a battery replacement cost of 40-50% of the new vehicle cost. They would also be smart to allow it to charge off of Tesla's Supercharger stations, because a 400 mile-range battery is going to be a lot of KW/h, and even a 50A 240 outlet ain't gonna charge it overnight.

I seriously doubt you will see one on any serious trail. The scenic trails at Moab? Sure. But a new owner ain't gonna risk a dent or scratch on this pricey unit. However, if someone does and I'm around, I will be more than happy to get them un-stuck or tow 'em out to the road where they can be loaded up on a flatbed :giggle:

LagunaH1
02-02-2020, 03:04 PM
Like all EV's, that rated HP will be for very brief "sprints". The motors and batteries would rapidly overheat if that output was sustained for any length of time.


Can the same not be said for gas or Diesel engines?

As long as an electric power train to designed to run at a high duty cycle then whatís the problem?

Are gas or Diesel engines designed to run at their max output for long periods of time? Some are, right? So, arguably, itís a matter of building the system to handle the load itís likely to see Iíd think


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deserth3
02-02-2020, 09:47 PM
Like all EV's, that rated HP will be for very brief "sprints". The motors and batteries would rapidly overheat if that output was sustained for any length of time.

And yes, it's going to be a wealthy person's toy. Figure the sticker price north of 100k, a useful battery life of perhaps 150k miles (at which point your 400-mile battery gives you 200 or less miles of range) and a battery replacement cost of 40-50% of the new vehicle cost. They would also be smart to allow it to charge off of Tesla's Supercharger stations, because a 400 mile-range battery is going to be a lot of KW/h, and even a 50A 240 outlet ain't gonna charge it overnight.

I seriously doubt you will see one on any serious trail. The scenic trails at Moab? Sure. But a new owner ain't gonna risk a dent or scratch on this pricey unit. However, if someone does and I'm around, I will be more than happy to get them un-stuck or tow 'em out to the road where they can be loaded up on a flatbed :giggle:I watched the H1 owners dis the H2 when it came out. I then had to listen to H1 and H2 owners out down the H3 when it came out.
All 3 turned out to be great off-road. Each in their own way. And reach one head their failings.
I'll at least give the GMC Hummer a chance.

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MaxPF
02-03-2020, 04:04 AM
Can the same not be said for gas or Diesel engines?

As long as an electric power train to designed to run at a high duty cycle then whatís the problem?

Are gas or Diesel engines designed to run at their max output for long periods of time? Some are, right? So, arguably, itís a matter of building the system to handle the load itís likely to see Iíd think


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Have you seen the size of a 1000HP continuous-duty electric motor? The "light" ones weigh over 7000lbs. The heavier induction-type are typically north of 9000lbs. Water cooling can reduce the size somewhat, as does using permanent magnets, but you're still talking about a very large, heavy motor.

I agree that a 1000HP supercharged engine in a Hummer-sized vehicle is not going to be continuous-duty either. That said, a new 700HP Corvette can sustain it's full output for many minutes, at least long enough to reach and, for a time, hold the car's top speed. The primary limitation is the cooling system. It's hard to fit a radiator capable of dissipating 1.7 million btu/h in a Corvette,

I remember when the ZR-1 Corvette powered by the Mercury Marine LT5 engine (375HP), and a standard Corvette engineers modified a regular small-block powered Corvette's engine with off-the-shelf parts to make 350HP, both ran 24 hours flat out on a 2-1/2 mile track with stops only to re-fuel. If those cars were electric, a 350HP-375HP electric motor capable of running continuously would weigh four times what those gasoline engines weigh. I won't even mention the size of the battery pack needed to sustain that output for thirty minutes, which is the approximate length of time a 350-375HP engine running flat out can run on a 15-20 gallon gas tank in a Corvette.


I watched the H1 owners dis the H2 when it came out. I then had to listen to H1 and H2 owners out down the H3 when it came out.
All 3 turned out to be great off-road. Each in their own way. And reach one head their failings.
I'll at least give the GMC Hummer a chance.

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I'm not concerned about it's capability or performance. I have concerns about it's true utility as something other than a toy for the well-heeled and a vehicle to appease the windmill huggers.

I do have the same recommendations for this vehicle as that to anyone wanting a Tesla or any other EV: LEASE IT! You don't want to be stuck trying to unload it after half the battery capacity is gone and any potential buyer (or dealer for a trade-in) realizes a new battery pack is 40% of the cost of a new vehicle of the same model :giggle:

LagunaH1
02-03-2020, 10:22 AM
Whether the new HummerEV will be designed to be able to withstand the stresses it encounters as owners use it, remains to be seen. I happen to think there is a good chance it will work just fine. Your comments about EV's loss of battery capacity seem exaggerated. I say this based on the statistics I have seen regarding Teslas. Do they lose battery capacity over time? Yes. If memory serves me correctly, about 5% in the first 3 years, then less in the years following. Tesla has a pretty substantial warranty on their battery packs: 8 years or 120000 miles with retention of 70% or better battery capacity remaining. Which gas / Diesel engine manufacturers offer that kind of warranty?

BTW: I *do* lease my Tesla. Not because I'm particularly concerned about loss of battery capacity, but because the EV market looks like it will be VERY different in 3 years. I believe there will be many many more EV's on the market by that time, so I am protecting myself from any crazy losses of value by leasing.

MaxPF
02-04-2020, 04:57 AM
Whether the new HummerEV will be designed to be able to withstand the stresses it encounters as owners use it, remains to be seen. I happen to think there is a good chance it will work just fine. Your comments about EV's loss of battery capacity seem exaggerated.

It depends on the climate and usage. Hot climates like AZ wear the batteries out faster. Deeper discharging before recharging wears the batteries out faster. Higher charge levels wear the batteries out faster. Use of the Supercharger wears the batteries out much, MUCH faster!


I say this based on the statistics I have seen regarding Teslas. Do they lose battery capacity over time? Yes. If memory serves me correctly, about 5% in the first 3 years, then less in the years following.

Again, that depends on many factors. That figure would be the most optimistic scenario.



Tesla has a pretty substantial warranty on their battery packs: 8 years or 120000 miles with retention of 70% or better battery capacity remaining. Which gas / Diesel engine manufacturers offer that kind of warranty?

They don't have to. Fuel tanks don't shrink in size as they age. The fuel tank in my Blazer holds the same 31 gallons of fuel as it did when it rolled off the assembly line in 1991. How many EV's will still be on the road in 29 years?




BTW: I *do* lease my Tesla. Not because I'm particularly concerned about loss of battery capacity, but because the EV market looks like it will be VERY different in 3 years. I believe there will be many many more EV's on the market by that time, so I am protecting myself from any crazy losses of value by leasing.

You make one of my points about EVs. Because their "fuel tank" shrinks with age and use, they will depreciate much more rapidly. When the battery reaches less than 50%, and definitely by the 30% mark, the vehicle will be scrap because the batteries are far too expensive to replace compared to the vehicle's residual value.

That brings me to another problem; recycleability. The batteries are only partially recycleable. The motors are probably nearly 100% recycleable (not sure about the permanent magnets). So is the copper or aluminum wiring. However, the electronics are not only not recycleable, but they are persistent toxic waste. One of the most polluted, toxic cities in China is the one where much of the world's dead electronics go to be "recycled". They extract the meager (but profitable) precious metals and junk the rest. Because EV's are impacted by weight more than vehicles powered by ICE's, more lightweight composites and filled plastics are used, both of which are virtually non-recycleable, don't have much use as ground filler material, don't biodegrade, and can only be incinerated in incinerators with expensive filtration to remove the toxic compounds generated. There are also a lot of non-filled plastics used that are also not either economically or practically/usefully recycleable. Basically, they are bulk waste with varying levels of toxicity, just like the scrap electronics.

By contrast, steel and aluminum are EXTREMELY recycleable. Modern cars all use lots of non-recycleable composites and plastics, but those powered by ICE's use less than their electric counterparts, on average. Composite and plastic body panels might be good for dent resistance, but aluminum is just as light and can be recycled over and over. I will avoid my tirade on the trend/fad of equipping cars with more and more electronic infotainment junk that becomes more persistent solid waste when the disposable car they are used in is scrapped at the end of it's life. Also, ironically, despite the toxicity of lead, the lead-acid batteries commonly used for SLI (starting, lighting, ignition) are recycled with virtually no loss. They are the most completely recycled item in common use. Not just the lead plates and conductors, but the polyethylene case and separators are also highly recycleable.

When discussing EV's, you have to consider so much more than "how many miles of gasoline equivalent does it get" and whether or not it emits CO2 from a tailpipe. They are far from being more environmentally and economically benign vs their ICE counterpart. And again, if the ICE vehicle is powered by renewable biofuels and manufactured with more recycleable materials, and considering ICE vehicles require very little in the way of rare expensive elements for their manufacture, then the environmental and economic aspects of EV's gets even worse.

Finally, despite appearances, I am not "anti-EV" per se. I AM anti-EV using the current technology. I see it as hopelessly wasteful, and being touted as "environmentally friendly", "sustainable", and "emitting no evil global-warming-causing greenhouse gases" when in reality they are actually doing more environmental harm than ICE powered vehicles. They are an anti-solution to a non-existent problem. If you like your EV, like the performance, quietness, or whatever other perceived positive attribute, that is great, and that is the free market at work. They're being made, and if you like one and can afford it you can, and should, be allowed to own one. But when people start touting their "environmentally friendly" EVs and saying we need to eliminate ICE vehicles and replace them with current EV technology, that is where I have a big problem. I know nobody in this thread has proposed such a thing, but a LOT of global-warming evangelists do, and so do some EV manufacturers who spend millions lobbying in Washington for more laws and rules favorable to EVs. Even if EV's were truly superior to ICEV's environmentally I would be against it, but when it's based on lies solely to boost the profitability of the EV market then that makes it criminal.

LagunaH1
02-04-2020, 10:27 AM
It depends on the climate and usage. Hot climates like AZ wear the batteries out faster. Deeper discharging before recharging wears the batteries out faster. Higher charge levels wear the batteries out faster. Use of the Supercharger wears the batteries out much, MUCH faster!



Again, that depends on many factors. That figure would be the most optimistic scenario.

Here is a source which points to actual, real world data on this topic. Not a scenario, not an assumption, but actual, real owner reported data: https://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degradation-data/. The headline summarizes the data as: "Less than 10% degradation after 160000 miles".



When discussing EV's, you have to consider so much more than "how many miles of gasoline equivalent does it get" and whether or not it emits CO2 from a tailpipe. They are far from being more environmentally and economically benign vs their ICE counterpart.

Cite your sources for this please?



And again, if the ICE vehicle is powered by renewable biofuels and manufactured with more recycleable materials, and considering ICE vehicles require very little in the way of rare expensive elements for their manufacture, then the environmental and economic aspects of EV's gets even worse.

You say "IF". *ARE* most gas / diesel vehicles actually powered by biofuels? *ARE* they manufactures by more recyclable materials?




when in reality they are actually doing more environmental harm than ICE powered vehicles.
What are your sources for this?

amrg
02-04-2020, 11:59 AM
I recall reading several articles where they estimate 6-8 years for an electric vehicle to break even with gasoline counterparts, and thats mainly due to the fact manufacturing an electric vehicle produces alot of emissions initially!
However, one advantage of electric vehicles is that you can use renewable energy sources to charge them (solar/wind) which would help drop that estimate while a gas powered vehicle cant.
Keep in mind, economies of scale will eventually drop all those numbers.

3Hummers
02-04-2020, 02:15 PM
I know that in my business we do quite a bit of recycling. To meet some of the green building codes we have to recycle certain percentages of the material ( waste ) used in the construction of the project and use certain recycled materials in building the project. Many of the recyclers don't want paper. certain types of plastics, Styrofoam, etc because there is no money in recycling those products. Some will take paper even though they lose money recycling it.

Mb30sdl
02-09-2020, 12:07 PM
I will post my opinion.
I have Tesla X 90D since sept 2016 (first gen)

As a city runaround itís great. Wife mostly shuttles kids around.
Quick as my old M6 (2007)

Battery (my) has 8 year/unlimited mileage and being first gen free Superchargers

Range depends on road conditions
(hills add ~10/20% power use),
weather ( cold ~up to 40% depending on difference between ambient temp and your T* setting)
A/c uses quite less juice

Prices on my model (100D) came down a lot last year~30%
And it gained true Autopilot
My partner got one for his wife end of last year and car actually drove him home without driver input ~30 mil ( freeways, streets and all)
( traffic signals update wasnít released yet, so it was seeing red light but didnít stop - itís being released later this year due to our socialist state )

48amp home charger chargers ~32 mil/hour and u only charge 80% for dally driving
I know 70 or maybe 100amp is available on certain models.

Price wise
Wifeís old car wasí08 GL 450 and we paid ~56k new back then

Hew GL AMG was coming up to ~140k, so it was very similar in$$$

$$ saving are modest for ~10k mil a year we save $3/4 k VS gas GL ( not included maintenance like tires, brakes ets)

So in conclusion EVs like Tesla are great as city car ( rest of them are not worth looking at)
But I donít see it doing any real long distance/ off-road use any time soon .





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AK RAM
02-12-2020, 12:17 PM
I own a Tesla Model 3; Dual Motor Long Range model to be specific. Itís the wifeís daily commuter, though we love it so much we drive it everywhere all the time. Itís just an incredible vehicle. We purchased it when the Honda Fit became too worn out and it was time for a new commuter. The Model 3 had everything on the wish list, it blew away every other car we drove and compared it to, and it was different. We like different. Same reason I have owned my H3T for the last 9 years; I have only seen one other in person, ever, here in the southeast. That is also the reason I don't see this new Hummer EV being anything special. I watched the commercials, pausing and re-watching, really taking notice of the shape of the front, hood, fenders, hoping to get an idea of what this thing was going to look like. After studying it, from the front at least, it appears to be your standard GMC Sierra pickup with a shiny Hummer influenced grill. Nothing special. I don't think I would be interested no matter how it is powered. I really dislike the looks of pickup offerings today. They are so boring.

As for being electric, that in itself wouldn't bother me. Certainly it wonít be a good fit for everyone. The range looks to be good though with an estimated 400 miles. That would work for me as it wouldnít be our road-trip vehicle. Which brings up the major point of consideration; if youíre looking at an EV purchase, I suggest you really educate yourself on the charging infrastructure in the part of the country where you live, and know that infrastructure's capabilities and shortcomings. If youíre just running the kids around town or driving to work and back, that is one thing. I mean, our Tesla charges at home while I'm sleeping, and I wake up every day with 300 miles of range for the daily commute; more than adequate. On a long road trip though, charge time will make or break your experience and there is a method to getting the most efficient charging session. Our Model 3 has a range of 328 miles on a full charge and we drive it all over, but I'm not sure I would want to do that if I didn't have access to Tesla's Supercharging network. I would not want to drive a 900 mile round-trip relying solely on commercial EV charging stations. That would be painful. Their charge rate is just too slow, and that is what you would be dealing with if you purchased a Hummer EV and was not charging at home. Right now, our long distance trips average 15 minutes charging for every 200 miles driven, so we would get a 15 minute pee/drink/snack/stretch break about every 3 hours of driving. With kids in the car, we can't make it more than 3 hours without stopping anyway, so it works. Charging time would be nearly double using commercial charging stations, and there are not that many of them. You could find yourself having to sit there and get a full charge, however long it took, just to be able to make it to the next one. The Supercharging network makes EV possible regardless of your vehicleís role, and the Supercharging network is only available to Tesla owners (currently). Just food for thought.

However, letís say you have a Hummer EV and you pull your camper to the beach for a week vaca. Itís a 300 mile trip, so plenty of range to get there. Once your there and setup, just plug-up your Hummer to your campsiteís 30amp RV plug and enjoy the free gasÖ.I mean free juice. Good to go. There is always a way to make it work that is not as much an inconvenience as you would think.

MaxPF
02-20-2020, 10:43 AM
Here is a source which points to actual, real world data on this topic. Not a scenario, not an assumption, but actual, real owner reported data: https://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degradation-data/. The headline summarizes the data as: "Less than 10% degradation after 160000 miles".That data is from the "Dutch-Belgium" Telsa owners, has only 350 vehicles, and likely most are from Europe where the climate is cooler than here in the US southwest, the middle east, large swaths of Australia, and the entire equatorial belt. It also doesn't show the extra degredation caused by frequent use of Superchargers, which Tesla says should be minimized. There is also this little caveat:

"Jeff Dahn, a renowned battery researcher and the leader of Tesla’s research partnership through his battery-research group at Dalhousie University, said that he recommends charging to only 70% daily in order to extend battery life."

That is standard for any lithium battery technology, not just electric cars. Even your smartphone and laptop will gain considerable battery life if charged to no more than 70%. Most people replace 'em before its a problem anyway, so there's no real practical reason to limit charging on mobile devices. An expensive electric car is another matter.




Cite your sources for this please?I'd have to look it all back up. I didn't save any of the URL's. DuckDuckGo (I never use Google) should be able to find the info for you, if you have time to burn :wink: Be careful though, as most analyses are concerned mainly with cost, not environmental impact, and even the ones that do specifically study environmental impact often neglect the recycleability (is that even a word? It is now!) if ICE and metallic car components vs many of the components in electric cars which cannot be economically recycled and are simply treated as solid waste.



You say "IF". *ARE* most gas / diesel vehicles actually powered by biofuels? *ARE* they manufactures by more recyclable materials? Most of the fuel used to power combustion engines comes from underground. However, with the various mandates for oxygenated fuel and the fact that MTBE turned out to be a disaster it turns out that at least 10% of "gasoline" is ethanol, which is a biofuel (although not a particularly sustainable one, IMO). E85 is, of course, 85% ethanol. Most diesel is straight petroleum distillate, although some places sell various biodiesel blends, usually 5% or less. Most current diesel engines are spec'd to run on up to 20% biodiesel, and older mechanically injected diesels that have proper compatible fuel hoses and seals can run on 100% biodiesel. This is hindered by availability though. There used to be a place here in Gilbert AZ that pumped both blends and 100% biodiesel. I ran my truck on 100% a few times and noticed no real difference other than a slight loss of mileage and the occasional smell of burning paper. They lied; I was told it was supposed to smell like french fries, but it never did :-(





What are your sources for this?

Again, DuckDuckGo. Of course, you are going to find a lot of conflicting "evidence" and debate. And as I mentioned, proponents like to overlook the end-of-life waste factor.

All vehicles, combustion or electric, become more ecologically friendly the longer they are kept in service because you don't have the energy usage and environmental impact of manufacturing a new vehicle to replace it. Automobiles are one of the few large purchases that we treat as essentially disposable. This is due to both the auto industry and our own affluence as a society. Auto makers are in the business of making and selling cars. They WANT them to be short-lived and disposable. They don't want vehicles that can be continually repaired and modified as needed to get decades of life while still meeting newer emissions standards. We do this with other vehicles: aircraft, watercraft, heavy machinery and class 5 and up trucks all live far longer lives than autos and light trucks. The reason is replacement cost vs cost of repair, routine maintenance, and occasional overhaul or replacement of engines and transmissions. Even in the case of a class 5-8 truck, you can in-frame overhaul the engine, install a remanufactured transmission, replace all suspension wear items, replace the seats and other worn interior components, and give it a fresh paint job tor 1/5th the cost of a new truck. They typically don't get replaced until they are either damaged beyond economical repair or are otherwise no longer capable of fulfilling their needed role. Same goes for heavy machinery. Aircraft aren't retired until the airframes are past their service lives and no longer economically repairable. Machine tools are likewise used until they are no longer economically repairable or no longer serve the needed requirements. You can still find 70 year old machines being used in manufacturing today. And I'm not necessarily talking multi-million dollar machines; even small machines that could be replaced with new Chinese junk for 5 grand are still kept in service because it's cheaper to do so... and because they're still better than Chinese junk! Autos and light trucks, OTOH, seldom live longer than 20 years because they're designed to be disposable. Most people who buy new cars keep them 3-7 years before they trade 'em in for the next shiny new object. It's incredibly wasteful, but nobody seems to notice or care. Not even environmentalists.

Anyhoo, back on topic. I think Bloomberg needs to borrow my soap box for the next DNC primary debate :giggle:

amrg
02-20-2020, 11:35 AM
Interesting how just two days ago I read an article about how Tesla treats their cars as consumable electronics instead of automobiles, and following in the practise of Apple in 1. Making their **** very difficult to repair and 2. Block access to replacement parts by keeping a tight net on suppliers. This resulted in insurance companies scrapping repairable cars just due to those two points, and even if someone goes through the process of actually getting the parts and repairing the vehicle, and getting certified by Tesla for the matter, they still get blocked from access to certain features such as supercharging.
I also read about how people are complaining about Tesla removing updates such as autonomous driving from vehicles after they are sold to a new owner arguing that those new owners have to pay for it independently and its non transferrable.
Anyway, this obviously is a problem as it makes those cars have a significant higher probability to be scrapped way before they break even with environmental emissions making them worse to the environment!