Hunner version Alpha dual batteries

[Hunner]

I used gel cells when they came out for my sailboat to eliminate gassing while enclosed in a confined space. (remember the Hindenburg) hydrogen gas + sparks! I was impressed with their serviceability. So started using a pair of them in my Dodge Cummins and one in my 06 Hummer. I never got around to adding the second one in the Hummer until I got the 08 Alpha. I was going on more extended trips farther from home and help.
They were not tolerant to high voltage DC unregulated chargers. Cooked them. They did work well with a properly regulated alternator.
When regulated chargers got developed that could use the proper charging required these did ok.
Along came AGM absorbed glass mat with some of the same features and more. No gassing, no leaking acid, do not corrode terminals, deep cycle, faster charging rate, resistant to vibration and can withstand the submersion in water and not short out. All of the great features of these batteries are also good for a bouncing offroad vehicle.
They are also good for more cycles of deep discharge whereas a starting battery is designed for short discharge and continuous maintenance recharge in a vehicle. This would work well in case of a drowned or dead engine you should be able to winch to at least a dryer place to work.

I used the battery vent hose for the cable run from the winch. I really don't need to spray the batteries with crap thru that thing and I don't think the bugs and dust insulate it all that well inside that thin plastic box. I put a reflective coated neoprene pad on the side of the battery closest to the engine and it was long enough to cover the ends. It is still the same distance from that wiring harness the battery tray was. I did not push them over but did release them from the tray and removed the plastic tray. The battery is two inches closer to the engine than it was.
I decided to go "KISS" (keepitsimplestupid) on this for now. NO switch, but I can just remove a terminal or swap the main lead.
I want both charging all the time, more amperage for winching and can always disconnect one jumper to save one hot if I'm winching with the engine dead so I have a gauge on what to try next before reconnecting it. That eliminates extra cable and simplifies the setup.
I used the screw terminals for the jumpers between batteries and attached the winch to those. I used SS nuts, not the wing nuts. I have now updated those to 2 Gauge 7 1/2 inch instead of the 2/0 which allowed me to bend them in over the batteries. I used welding cable with heavier insulation and fine flexible wire. I used copper lugs that were tinned with closed ends and a special crimper with shrink wrap. I also have an open pos and neg terminal for my rear winch connections.

Exide Marine dual terminal deep cycle.
CCA 750 @0* CA/MCA 950 @32* more like Arkansas weather!
compared to AC Delco
CCA 590 no listing on the battery for CA/MCA

I replaced those OEM main terminals. I decided to just torque one past the point I consider safe to see if it would ever tighten enough that I could not move it. It begain to buckle underneath and actually loosened it. Snip!
I have now Hunnerized the new main lead terminals. Universal ones don't fit the negative tapered post. Those first ones I used in the proto-type are those "emergency" style you find everywhere. You will have an emergency if you depend on that crap. They do not even provide a tapered nut anymore, so it does dig into the lead before it gets tight! I drove the 60 miles to my Brother-in-laws electrical automotive shop. You think I'm pickey!!! He has a great selection of special fittings and several high tech crimpers. We used the hydraulic ones and they are CRIMPED completely and evenly all around the diameter. Not a screw that pierces the wire or pushes on a tiny plate. These gives the full current carrying capacity of the gauge of wire being used.
A secure physical connection insures a good electrical connection.
Looks like a candy store!

This was before the heat shrink was slid up flush and heated to show the crimp. It also shows the "emergency" type terminal that just are not right for this application.

We had to make some custom dies for the hydraulic crimper to keep from distorting the fittings. We did it in two stages with two dies. The one that came with it are for larger wire and terminals. Like for John Deere's. That of course required us to machine our own dies on a verticle milling machine. Another excuse to play with neat machines. He was busy so I got to use his special tools. I used lead coated copper fittings with closed ends and sealed them with shrink wrap lined with adhesive that when shrunk really seals things up. So I did not pursue the marine grade tinned wire.

This is the progress for now.

This is a detailed install and so was written for someone considering doing it. It is not "lite" reading.
Unique to these batteries is the two holes between cylinders that on top is capped off by the thickness of the blue top piece. The difficulty on the H3 using the existing base for the second battery, the position closer to the engine, has for some reason a large hole right where I needed to drill. Then the other hole would line up with a contour edge. I center punched and drilled that one. Then the problem is the bracket is formed down to the fender liner. That leaves a folded seam where these two come together and would not work to drill thru and install washers and nuts.
I went with "J" bolts found at any autoparts store except I made them "L" bolts by straightening the ends to a level position. Use at least 5/16 that was as big as I could find. Here comes the most "tecknackle" part. Caution this involves duct tape! I stuck them down in the two holes in the base and taped them so they would stay oriented with the L under the base plate. I just used spin on nuts, lock washers and locktite on the top to keep from turning them. I left the threaded part a little long. Im considering running a brace across the top of the batteries just for good measure. Hunnerized!
The battery closest to the fender I used a long bit clear down thru the fender liner. The liner is not against the fender so would not allow for tightening. I used a die grinder to make a hole for a socket to fit up in there to hold the nut. I use stainless for everything since I had most of it and it will allow for easy removal. I used 3/8 all-thread and put nylocs on the bottom end to hold that in place and was able to use them on the top while holding the bottom. It's a stretch to reach!
The base plate I had to bend down a tab with a hole in it for a wireloom connection to get it out of the way. I then added some neoprene on the slight edge since it is too short and strong to bend.
The SS ubolt in the middle was my first attempt to install a battery hold down strap, fail! Not enough room.

stay tuned a work in progress..................
Found a possible switch if anyone goes that way. It's inclosed so will be protected. I found another place that indicates those panels like you see in the top can be removed on any side to allow the wires to go in.

http://www.wholesalemarine.com/pc/S...s+&+Accessories/Battery+Switch+with+Knob.html

Here is another for a little more money but not as boxy.
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wc...rimary Search/mode matchallpartial/20/0?N=377 710 1641&Ne=0&Ntt=Batteries &Ntx=mode matchallpartial&page=CategoryDisplayLevel1&isLTokenURL=true&storeNum=5002&subdeptNum=9&classNum=29

Link for terminals
http://order.waytekwire.com/product...raight/Battery Lugs/Terminals And Connectors/

 

[Paladine71]

Come on, man... stop BS'ing all of us...





You work for NASA, right?

 

[M22KLARS]

Nothing gets overlooked on your projects. Nice work as always.

 

[alrock]

Why is your engine compartment so clean? There was about a cup of dirt in my battery box yesterday.

Nice project, Mr. Hunner. Impressive.

 

[Hunner]

A clean engine is a happy engine!:thumbs:

 

[05Mudiak]

How much those betteries cost? I may have to swing up your way to get a couple:thumbs:

 

[Sennin]

Niice

as an interest, when you install the switch, should it be on the positive or negative?

I would put a switch on the positive side, but have heard of people doing it on the negative side....

:hthink:

 

[Hunner]

How much those betteries cost? I may have to swing up your way to get a couple:thumbs:

I buy quite a few for my business at an Exide distributor but they are available retail at Academy Sports. Like everything else they keep going up. The current price at Academy is around $200. You should have a location down there.
Properly installed and maintained I have had these go 5 years in a vehicle. One application is in my Dodge Cummins diesel that uses two and always cranks after sitting for a weeks at a time, even in the winter.
I have two in my Whaler chase boat laying on their side to fit in the center console and they get hammered in a light chop to higher waves. I go as far as 50 miles off shore trusting the two battery set up I have with a make before break three position switch, 1 2 and All positions.
I use my boat as an example of how I see these hold up because that is a tough environment as well as in an H3. In the systems I build for larger boats I use these and have a great success rate. They also survive being discharged for extended periods and bounce back to a fully charged state. They maintain a higher voltage level than flooded batteries.
I had 6 on my boat while it was on the Gulf. 3 on the mains and 2 on the secondary. I had a third isolated for sensitive electronics so they were not in the cranking circuit. I could go for over 20 hours running navigation, radar, autopilot and running lights, fans, fridge and other draw before dropping to below 12v but they would still crank the diesel.
I could combine them to float an even charge to the lesser charged before having to fire up the diesel with a high output alternator. An hour of running would bring them to a regulated 14.6 volts, maintain that float charge until it was absorbed and then level off to around 13.6. So they are loafing in a vehicle with a constant regulated charge.
I have also used them in race cars I do fabrication work on and are required to use non-flooded batteries to prevent spilling in crashes. I mounted one in a Porsche set up for racing dead center in the bonnet area and thru bolted it down the center like I did in the H3. Lots of G's exerted in that land rocket.
So I have used probably 18-20 in applications this year alone. When I pick them up they just shove a pallet in my truck. They are heavy for their size. I have always felt several smaller batteries are better than one huge one that I cannot lift alone or fit in tight spaces.
I left them for weeks at a time without a charger and they floated at 12.8 volts.
They were often tilted at steep angles and then bounced over waves at 7 to 10 knots. Secure physical connections and tie downs insured they were always connected.
I just really like these if you can't tell, judging from my experience with them.

 

[Hunner]

Niice

as an interest, when you install the switch, should it be on the positive or negative?

I would put a switch on the positive side, but have heard of people doing it on the negative side....

:hthink:

That is one of those age old questions. It depends! In my case with the other things hooked up I prefer to break the positive cable between batteries to isolate them.

 

[Hunner]

Come on, man... stop BS'ing all of us...





You work for NASA, right?

No but if they let me drive this I might! I bet it has some lowest bidder hi-tech batteries in it.

 

[Paladine71]

I see that they already have the off-road lights mounted up, but I'm not a fan of the rack... :no:

 

[M22KLARS]

Hunner... So your switch is an isolator then? (I'm not good with electrical) Charge both batteries but one cannot drain the other type thing?!

 

[Hunner]

I have not put a switch in yet ( did later ) because I wanted to keep the cables and connections down for now. When I go out on camping trips I just pull the cable. These batteries will hold a charge a long time.
If I do put a switch it will be a disconnect or a selector like 1 2 and all. I build quite a few dual or more battery systems on boats with selector switches. I have used a few of the heat sink looking isolators that will charge the batteries separately so the weaker battery does not pull down the higher charged on and equalize them at a lower charge.
I just have not decided which way I want to do this on the H3.
If I were in a heavy winching mode and the engine would not run I would disconnect one to have when I got to where I could work on the engine, like out of a big mud hole or creek with running water.
Sort of brief but I gotta run.
Floods and tornadoes are no fun!

 

[gerryc15]

hunner,

Your work on the H3 is outstanding.

I am a new guy here and I have a 2009 h3 with an I-5 and stock battery.

My question is where did you get the battery tray or box for for the dual batteries?


Also, you did some serious work on the 2006 h3 with the i-5 is there a place I can see the mods that you did to the I-5 for more power

 

[Hunner]

I used the stock metal tray. The Exide batteries are made like a six pack and have two holes down thru the middle. I used some J bolts to secure them. Less weight and $$. I have always thought about running a cross bracket over the top but never have.

Briefly, in early 06 on the I-5 I made an intake tube bent slightly to clear a coil and two turbo boots, pulled the thru the OEM fender snorkle off at the air box back to where it gets larger and added a turbo boot to the fender from there enlarging the intake. Had a PCM programmed by PCM for Less and cut off the rear muffler and made the pipe come straight back and out the Pass side but tucked up and cut off flat like it was on the drivers side.
I figured as short a run as the H3 has and as smooth as the bends are, having mandral bent would not change much. I'm not even sure a larger pipe would make much difference. There is a place before the resonator that is flattend that may cause some restriction but I think with these computer controlled engines and the cats in there they have it figured close to what is required. Removing the muff of course will be less restriction down the pipe, it growls a bit but no drone and does not cost anything to do as opposed to a $300 dollar new "free" flow muffler or $800 cat back system that you pay for a duplicate pipe like you have?
All of that combined makes some seat o pants dyno improvements. I just use a paper element and avoid the oil problems. Worked for me.
Alpha I made a straight tube, Flashpaq tow mode, paper element and stock muff for quite rides at speed. Plenty of power.
Welcome to the forum!

 

[gerryc15]

hunner,

Thank you for the information and the Welcome

 

[05Mudiak]

Hunner what r your thoughts on this? I have read where it's not good to run dual deep cycles something about harder on the starter because they put out power at a slower rate or something. They were saying you should use a starting batt and a deepcycle.

I was just going to go your route going to hit up Academy this weekend

 

[ReconH3]

Hunner what r your thoughts on this? I have read where it's not good to run dual deep cycles something about harder on the starter because they put out power at a slower rate or something. They were saying you should use a starting batt and a deepcycle.

I was just going to go your route going to hit up Academy this weekend

I can't answer the starter question but what I can say is that you can't run different batteries in parallel. They have to be identical or separated by some sort of isolator system. Otherwise one will starve the other battery which eventually will leave you dead in the water.

Hunner's setup is the one I eventually want to do. The Artec setup is far from adequate since it's dependent on using Optimas. Now I need to locate an Exide dealer near me.


"Ex Umbris Venimus"

Sent from my iPhone

 

[Hunner]

Exides advice is not to use two different types of batteries in combination as they have different charge absorption rates. A charging isolator might help this to some degree but I would not risk it.
The Exides I use have a higher amp rate than their starter batteries.
Send me a link to where you read that, I am always interested in seeing what is out there.
As mentioned in my posts and to recap some highlights,,,,,,
I personally have 5 of these on my sailboat that I sailed extensively for 8 years on the Gulf. I started with the gel cells and got AGM when they first became available on recommendation of my Exide dealer. I ran many more hours with out cranking the diesel with these on two banks, 3 on the house or mains and two on Bat 2 for backup. I had a fairly large amp draw especially at night with lights and fans below, stereo, nav lights, radar, map-plotter/sounder/gps and radar. On long trips I sometimes isolated an extra battery that required using a second switch to access. While underway and not wanting to risk resetting my radar, map plotter and GPS units, I only cranked the engine with an isolated battery so the electronics would not get any surge. Most of the diesels in sailboats I work on have Yanmar diesels. They do not have glow plugs but need a high output battery to crank them up more easily and get that initial cylinder heat to get things going. The other great thing I realized over time is these can sit for long periods with little discharge. Inherent to multiple batteries connected is a usually an ambient discharge I am yet to fully understand. These do not seem to have a noticeable rate of "leakage" I did not leave AC power attached to my boat I left for weeks at a time when I came home. I have seen too many lightening strikes come in on bad grounded AC dock supplies as well as poorly designed neighbors systems causing corrosion to my prop and drive shaft by leaking AC to DC.
I run two in my Dodge Cummins diesel turned up to 600 hp and 600 ftlb torque set to pull loads up to around 26,000 pounds in all kinds of weather. I mention that because it is high compression and cold starts on a Cummins does not use glow plugs but does have a pre-heater coil for the intake air, which draws enough that if you have low batteries will dim the interior lights way down.
I run two in the Alpha H3 and have winched some long pulls on several vehicles.
I have also over the last few years installed many of these batteries in multiple banks on sailboats at our 3 major lakes and on several boats on the Gulf and installing smart chargers to protect them from the owners. lol
NO FAILURES. Some of these people were buying new flooded batteries every year!
I mention the sailboat applications as they show how these batteries under harsh conditions recharge faster, hold charges longer, maintain a higher voltage and survive submersion and many repeated deep discharges. No one likes to idle their diesel while sailing and offshore racing requires you to be on the honor system not to run the diesel, in gear.
You can weld with one of these batteries as they also have a high tolerance to being shorted out, like also still working while submerged, saw it happen on a boat the owner questioned my choice for these more expensive batteries, knowing how he is about boat maintenance and did not think he needed dual bilge pumps!
The sealed batteries also eliminate corrosion on the terminals and for confined spaces the leaking of acid or explosive hydrogen gas.
Some or all of these qualities are desirable to me in conditions I have had my H3.
AND, just about every Bass boat I have looked at are running huge high output 4 stroke motors and trolling motors and the smart ones are using at least two deep cycle for dependability and higher cranking amps and longer trolling times.
I have two in my Whaler on a 1 2 All switch.
Works for me!
Grab the two cables on a deep cycle and stick them on your tongue and let me know how slow that output feels!!
I must still have some brain cells left after my root canal to have remembered all of that. Damn it hurts!!

 

[H3slate]

Thanks again for another very informative writeup on a well thought out modification. :cheers:

Someday I would like to run dual batteries and it sounds like these are the ones to get. Now we just need to fab a battery tray and bracket to fit these batteries.

 

[Pappibri]

Love your detailed write-ups Hunner... Have to remember this if I decide to go with the dual setup down the road..:thumbs:

 

[05Mudiak]

Just looking for opinions on this. I have read it at multiple places. basically what I get out of it is;

Starting batteries have thinner plates but more of them to give that quick output for starting but can't last if takng down below 50% charge multiple times

Deep Cycle have fewer plates but they are thicker to withstand long periods of draw and 50%+ discarge multipple times. I have read multiple people running dual deeps's just looking for opinions


My Artec rack will excepet any 34/78 sries battery not just Optimaa if that was the case I would have not bought it.

There are many many many rigs running a starting battery and deep cycles in combo you just have to use an isolator. From off road rigs to car stereo compition cars and they are super hard on batteries

 

[Hunner]

You can throw out most of that info on number of plates and thickness in AGM batteries, they use a grid system. They are absorbed glass mat.
You don't need any additional tray or holder for these batteries as shown in the install post. Adding an additional cross piece on top is an option and why I have left the studs a little long. I ran out of "roundtoits"! Someday maybe but they have not moved.
Another reason I use two deep cycle batteries is that they have more capacity than a starting battery of the same design so why not? I don't see any advantage of the lesser battery because it says "starting" on it. It's just my belief it is one of those misconceptions that just because "others do it, it must be right", is not one of my limiting factors to try other options. So the same thing applies to my set up, it works for me in my past experience.
The old theory was that a starting battery could be of moderate capacity since it only output a heavy discharge to crank a vehicle and then was immediately brought back to an ideal state of charge by the vehicles regulated alternator and charging controls. Then when running accessories and lights it was constantly recharged at a rate to keep up, if it is in good condition. Great in ideal situations. IE the wimpy size of the OEM installed battery!!!
Example of not ideal would be heavy draw of multiple "offroad" lights and or winching and then,,,,,,,,your engine dies, either because you did not think you needed a snorkle and hit a hole or were quick enough to shut it off before hydro lock and then your starting battery with low capacity and ability to regenerate quickly was not up to the task, throw in cold weather and compare starting capacity of the two types starts to differ greatly. Not having a distributor to drown out is a plus now days but there are several other electrical components that do not like water. One I can think of that is vulnerable is the wimpy fuse box cover. I have given this some thought and tried hard to find an existing Pelican or similar case to enclose the components in but have not found a suitable substitute and have sort of set that aside for now. Coils and spark plugs even with rubber boots when showered with muddy water thrown around by your fan are at some point with the heat in the engine compartment and moisture ladden air and steam can be subject to failure.
Heat generated by using cheap terminals that are not sealed at the wires and insufficient gauge cables will also come into play while under heavy loads.
My take on batteries, more is better! You decide.
Exide has also come out with a newer version of AGM I am looking into. I don't have the specific details on the Deep Cycle version, yet. I'm sure my distributor will get it to me so he can sell a pallet full of them. It's spring for boaters around here.
http://www.exide.com/Media/files/Downloads/TransAmer/Products/Edge 4 page booklet non spread.pdf
http://www.exide.com/us/en/product-...uct/exide-orbital-agm-marine-deep-cycle-.aspx
http://www.exide.com/us/en/product-...product/exide-nautilus-marine-deep-cycle.aspx

 

[05Mudiak]

got I am in the same boat as you in my thinking just wanted to get others opinions.

Those orbitals are the ones I am looking at I might hit up Academy tonight see what they have on the shelf