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Custom rebuild and redesign of Humvee / H1

JPaul

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2,400
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Way up north, UT
If you really want to do rear wheel steering, I'd look at the skytrack's that have it (rough terrain boom forklifts). The setup is fairly simply and really robust (these are construction vehicles that are used every day, that have to stand up to the abuse). You can steer in a circle or use "crab" mode to drive at an angle from the direction you are facing. They are able to center the rear axle really well too, I never noticed any alignment issues when I used them back when I was building houses and apartments. When you wanted to be done with using rear steering in combination with front steering, you'd flip the switch back to just front wheel steering and then turn the wheel until it locked the rear steering back to dead center.

I'm not entirely certain how it works but I would imagine that it has a lock that is activated when you turn off rear steering, maybe a pin that snaps into place via a solenoid or something. You disable the rear steering, it drops the pin down onto a plate and as you turn the steering back it goes into a matching hole that then locks the steering in place. The only alignment you'd need to worry about is the initial steering alignment, have it locked in place and align everything to be straight, then it should always lock back the same way, except of course if the steering is knocked out of alignment. Shouldn't be too hard to fabricate honestly, it's the rest of the system that would be complex.
 

3Hummers

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Central Texas
Skytrak forklifts are significantly more robust than any passenger vehicle and are not designed for high speed. I am not exactly sure how you could duplicate the rear steer system onto a passenger vehicle. I also think that liability issues are one of the things that killed off people offering rear steering kits. Maybe something to look into down the road but figuring out all of the technical issues that Cole is facing with what he is attempting is daunting enough. IMO.
 

JPaul

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2,400
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Way up north, UT
Yeah, try driving one to another job site that is miles away, during the winter, with no windscreens. That sucked. And then we didn't even take the job on because the idiots that poured the foundation didn't make sure it was actually level, there was a 8 inch drop from one corner to the opposite corner when we checked it.

My comments were more towards the bit about having trouble re-aligning the wheels to go straight after using the rear steering. It's a pretty easy solution to create a lock for it, but yeah, designing and implementing the rest of the system would not be simple at all.
 

GreatDaneHummer

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994
Location
Chicago
For me the added weight is what makes the rear steer not realistic. The list of parts that are needing to be remade into Carbon Kevlar is growing by the day and I am sure even more will be added before assembly even begins so for now the rear steer is shelved. To get an idea of how crazy a project this is, Mclaren just showed an all natural P1 in carbon fiber with a nice blue tented clear coat and said it cost them over $300,000 to do this entire finish which is an even lesser process / finish than I am doing for this H1. I don't have that kind of money to just spend away with so this will be one part at a time growing into a hopeful master piece.
 

GreatDaneHummer

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Chicago
Just wanted to get a poll on going a different way with the engine. I had an offering to be able to purchase a brand new AMG V12 BiTurbo from Mercedes Benz with 630HP and 1000ft lbs torque as a power plant. Thoughts?
 

Paranormal

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128
Location
Suffolk County, New York
Even though it sounds awesome, what is the cost vs the power train you were initially going to install. If you are planning on marketing this in the future, you have to consider how many people are going to be willing to spend the extra $$$$$$$$ for a Bi turbo. Also consider all the plumbing for a bi turbo. I thought of doing this for my C7 Vette and there were many questions regarding leaks.
 

GreatDaneHummer

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994
Location
Chicago
For the diesel power train it will be about $30k all new including engine, trans and transfer case. For the AMG engine it would be closer to $50k. It would be $50k or so for a really nice all new Cummins engine setup also. $50k for a custom Nelson engine, trans and transfer case. So many options not sure which is the best.
 

LagunaH1

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Lake Forest, CA
Well, I'm probably stating the obvious to some extent, but the "personality" of an engine will lend itself to specific usages I think. For example, a GM 6.5 Turbo is not something which will make any vehicle fast, but it's a good workhorse with lots of torque in the low rev range. I haven't read any dat ion it, but I imagine the AMG engine may have most of it's torque much higher up in the rev range, so that could lead to a fast vehicle, but maybe not the best "go slow" / rock crawl / wheeling setup.

Edit: My suggestion would be to keep things as simple as possible, especially since this is your first effort in rebuilding an H1. Don't let scope creep kill your otherwise awesome project :)
 

GreatDaneHummer

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994
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Chicago
LagunaH1 thanks for your input. Part of why I am thinking of the power train setup right now is a possible major change in the project is coming into form. I met with a company that specializes in structural Carbon Fiber advanced assembly. I am shipping the frame over to them today to see about rebuilding the frame itself in Carbon Fiber along with most of the associated under body parts. I know my limits and its one things to do body panel rebuild / design and another to do advanced frame redesign. By possibly rebuilding the frame itself I run into many more possible problems / opportunities.

Pro's: I can modify it from the start to incorporate more spacing for the engine mounting doing away with the body lifts needed for many engine transplants. It will fix the flex issues I will most likely run into having a very stiff solid body on a high flex steel frame. Considerable weight loss moving the over all finished vehicle weight closer to 3900 lbs.

Con's: Not sure what issues I will have yet with having the vehicle still registered as a year 2000 Humvee when only 10% of it is original parts left. What legal issues could I have with AM General for selling a vehicle with its design but little left of a "rebuild" vs. new OEM. How much interest would people have if this project took a different turn and went into full OEM package with a redesigned and updated exterior as to be a stand alone vehicle offered to the public. Would people that own H1's be interested in a similar platform that is no longer a "Hummer".

Lots of questions and ideas going on.
 

LagunaH1

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Lake Forest, CA
Not sure what issues I will have yet with having the vehicle still registered as a year 2000 Humvee when only 10% of it is original parts left. What legal issues could I have with AM General for selling a vehicle with its design but little left of a "rebuild" vs. new OEM. How much interest would people have if this project took a different turn and went into full OEM package with a redesigned and updated exterior as to be a stand alone vehicle offered to the public. Would people that own H1's be interested in a similar platform that is no longer a "Hummer".

Yeah, lots of questions indeed. I wish I could offer more than just nodding my head, but I see where you are coming from, I still would vote for keeping it simple.
 

JPaul

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2,400
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Way up north, UT
I love that we've got a "poor broke college guy budget build" H3 thread and a "ZOMG hnnnnnnnnnggggg carbon fiber ALL THE THINGS EEEEEEEK!" H1 thread on this forum, and everything in between. A carbon fiber frame will be B-A. It'd probably help a good amount with fuel economy, though I don't think you'll save enough in fuel to compensate for the cost of a CF frame. My question is how well would it hold up against being offroaded. Seems you'd want some flex in it to absorb some of the shock when bouncing around offroad.
 

GreatDaneHummer

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994
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Chicago
Nothing about doing an all Spectra Carbon Kevlar / Carbon fiber H1 is about cost effectiveness. The benefits to doing a well engineered all Carbon Fiber frame go far beyond fuel savings. Part the idea to go to a Carbon Fiber frame is simply a solution to another problem brought about by building a very solid ridged body. If you have a solid body with a high flex frame you will have to compensate by using very soft body mounts to help absorb flex and vibration from the frame. Another way to do this is to keep the body solid and make the frame solid with mid level soft body mounts but move your anti vibration to specialty engine mounts and a modified suspension. So by going with a very solid body and frame you must improve the suspension in order to have a ride that doesn't brake your back. A possible solution would be utilizing active dampening systems like Bilstein makes or multiple active systems like BWIGroup makes. There is a company out of Australia that makes some very special front and rear diff's for the H1 and other military applications and can go all the way up to a bolt on Dana 80 center. Another benefit to this new diff is it is actually even slimmer than the OEM one so you can use longer CV shafts creating more wheel travel. I am all for keeping this project simple BUT the possibilities are almost endless and as I continue to work on this I have gained many great contacts that continue to educate me into what is realistic vs. what is 5-10 years down the road worth of building. I come from a manufacturing management back ground so when it comes to manufacturing I am golden. When it comes to the auto industry I am always learning so I feel the combination of the two staying humble will create a success. Right now it is very cold here in Chicago so I am only able to keep the shop around 65 degrees with my small heater so not ideal for laying up material. I will have to wait till some of this icy weather passes to continue with the panels. For now more planning so hopefully I can succeed.
 

Expendable

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1,025
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Burbank, CA
Will the AMG V12 even fit w/o a lot of mods? I'm pretty sure it's a DOHC, so it's going to be really wide plus the twin turbos. Plus who is going to perform maintenance on the truck?

Like others have said, I would keep it simple. If going with a newer engine, I would use the mini Duramax the Colorado has.
 

GreatDaneHummer

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994
Location
Chicago
Carbon Fiber.jpg

Interesting turn of events today. I was able to get direct pricing on special Carbon Fiber material. This is the same material that Ferrari is using for their F1 program. From what started as a simple project into what I can do with Carbon Fiber and an H1 is moving more towards a full blown super car/truck build. I am very excited to see my first shipment of material show up in 60-90 days.
 
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Expendable

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Burbank, CA
The mini Duramax is inline 4 vs the cummins being a V8. the inline 4 should fit better width wise though the height might be a problem. the 4bt and or 6bt has height issues when swapping into a H1. The V8 cummins would probably fit better height wise but the H1 has pretty narrow frame rails compared to a regular pick up truck.

Not sure about transmission why how these would work out for the mini Duramax, Cummins V8 and or MB AMG engine.

What about resin for the carbon fiber? (I know minimal about carbon fiber and that's mostly what I have seen as behind the scenes videos of Koenigsegg making their carbon fiber parts in house)
 

GreatDaneHummer

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994
Location
Chicago
The mini Duramax is inline 4 vs the cummins being a V8. the inline 4 should fit better width wise though the height might be a problem. the 4bt and or 6bt has height issues when swapping into a H1. The V8 cummins would probably fit better height wise but the H1 has pretty narrow frame rails compared to a regular pick up truck.

Not sure about transmission why how these would work out for the mini Duramax, Cummins V8 and or MB AMG engine.

What about resin for the carbon fiber? (I know minimal about carbon fiber and that's mostly what I have seen as behind the scenes videos of Koenigsegg making their carbon fiber parts in house)

Great question: Here is what I have learned from taking classes and with reading everything I can get my hands onto from the industry journals combined with my limited "put in action" experiences. This might be a bit long so I apologize ahead of time. There are literally hundreds of resins out there but I can say that the industry standards for automotive manufacturing is far cheaper and lower quality than anyone admits. Due to most people still thinking carbon fiber parts are some mythical being that is only for the most exotic cars / equipment companies like Koenigsegg; they actually use mid grade prepreg sheets with heavy amounts of filler to reduce lines from using multiple smaller pieces and over lapping. Using lots of hand cut smaller pieces like Koenigsegg uses they say it is hand laid like that is something very special compared to hand stitching fabric in your interior which is a real art. The truth is custom computer designed parts cut out on a 2D mill is far more expensive to do but in the end you get wonderful fitting parts that need less filler to keep the weight down. I get off subject; basically even the highest end cars use cheap Carbon Fiber and resin during manufacturing. A comparison to how I am making parts might help you to see what I am talking about. Keep in mind the reason Koenigsegg and most other companies build their parts this way is it is far cheaper.

Standard auto industry: Prepreg 3k 2x2 Twill Weave 610 KSI strength at 5.7oz per square yard, Temp ranges from -40 degree to 200 degree stability. Engine bays use a high temp hardener to push it up to around 295 degree.
- Cost: Around $100 a yard depending on the quantity used. This already has resin in it so that is the total cost to apply a piece.

High end racing / aerospace / specialty products : 12k Twill Weave 1027 KSI strength at 1.77oz per square yard, The epoxy I use is -55 to 338 degree stable. No need for heavy high temp hardeners to be added.
- Cost: Around $129 a yard depending on the quantity used. This does not include resin. resin is expensive adding $100 or so per yard.

The biggest difference between these two products besides weight, strength and cost is the labor to produce a part between the two methods. I will put in more than 2 times the labor to produce a part vs. using Prepreg layers. You ask why the hell would you do it this way then? I want to build the best, I want to work with the best and in the end, anyone that would actually want to buy this kind of truck from me I want to be sure they will have years and years of enjoyment without issue. Something strong enough to off road the ever living piss out of and never crack a panel. Go from the desert to the mountains and not worry about the truck.
 
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