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JPaul's H3 Base build

JPaul

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,400
Location
Way up north, UT
Hook is on, and I still haven't put that spring back on for the cable tensioner. It's a very strong spring, and I figure it'll be a lot easier to get on once I have the cable pulled all of the way out and don't have to try and stretch it so far.

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I still haven't hooked it up to the battery, I want to swap the terminals out for some brass marine style terminals that I already have. I also have no plans on hooking up the circuit breaker that the winch came with (which to me just seems like an electrical fire/accident waiting to happen), I had never seen anyone attach a circuit breaker in line with their winch before, and everything I could find out about it didn't give me a lot of faith that I really needed it.

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Here it is, fully mounted in all of it's uber cheap glory:

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By the way, I have no idea what that glowing bluish green dot is under the gearbox, I'm guessing it's a reflection from the sun off of my phone.

Here is a slightly better lit shot of it while getting some pizza for dinner:

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I still need to hook it to the battery and then pull out the cable, re-attach the tensioner spring, and bring the line back in under tension. Considering what I paid for it, I'm pretty pleased. It should give me enough service with how often I go get stuck (which so far, has been not at all, but hopefully that will change very soon) for me to get $200 worth of use out of it.
 

JPaul

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,400
Location
Way up north, UT
Well, I ended up skipping swapping out the batter terminals for now. I didn't realize the factory terminals have mounting posts for accessories already. I hooked the winch up to those for now, since I mostly wanted to make sure it actually works and I didn't get a dud. Winch in and out works great, bit noisy in reverse, but not surprised by that, especially with a planetary gearbox.

I am unnerved though by power always being supplied, so I'll wire in a kill switch to the control box. All you really need for that is to put a switch inline with the control wires (ground I think is what you need to put it on), so I'll wire one up in the cab. Then I won't have to worry about it accidentally (or maliciously) being powered on.

Tomorrow night I'll enlist the help of one of my friends from church to spool the wire rope in under tension all proper like. It was a bit too late tonight.

But hey, I have a working winch that is basically brand new for only $200, not bad at all! :)
 

4speedfunk

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,212
Location
Tardville
Kill switch for the winch feed will be huge. If you go this route, put it right at the battery. Many guys running rear winches use a disconnect relay to do the same thing. These gives you the ability to kill the main hot feed that runs the entire length of the vehicle....often in locations where it could be damaged.. It's probably overkill on the front due to the close proximity,.
FWIW....I run a large plug on my winch. It serves as both an emergency disconnect and also makes it easy to pull the bumper if need be.
http://m.ebay.com/itm/2-X-Battery-Q...nect-Winch-Trailer-E-/261952197207?nav=SEARCH
 
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JPaul

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,400
Location
Way up north, UT
I might do a master emergency kill switch like that, but what I am actually thinking about is something that basically shuts down the control box so that you can't plug in a controller (or use a paper clip or something) and run the winch. You just need to put a switch in line with the ground or power feed to the control portion of the contactor/solenoid to prevent it from being actuated. While I haven't heard of anyone mucking with people's winches here, I've heard tales of it happening elsewhere, and would rather not risk it.
 

Texatl

Well-Known Member
Messages
109
Location
SW Ohio
I spent most of the day yesterday on the H3. Part of it was installing the rock sliders above, but the bulk of it was due to a find from Friday at the Harbor Freight. They were having their Parking Lot Sale (this one actually has it in their parking lot) and they had a bunch of their returns/open box stuff marked down as well. One of these was fortunately a 12,000 Lb winch. They were selling them new for $295, and this one was marked down to just $200 since it was a return.
Awesome! I was at HF myself getting some air tools on that sale. I see its still going on this weekend. I might have to run back over and see what they have now...
 

JPaul

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,400
Location
Way up north, UT
Picked up some Velcro ties to help organize my stuff:

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I also got some longer ones from work to use for my tow strap and tree strap.
 

JPaul

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,400
Location
Way up north, UT
Started on my undercarriage protection, a buddy at work lent me his Hobart 140 Handler welder. I've never welded before today. My buddy helped me get the basics and I am getting the hang of it.

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So, yeah, not the best, but I think it'll hold fine.

This one was the last weld I did for the night, it's getting better.

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This is as far as I got tonight. Hopefully I can finish it up before next weekend, we're going on a camping trip and I'm hoping to get some offroading in.

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It's ugly, but it'll be effective once I'm done with it. Plus it'll be on the bottom of the H3, so no one will see it. Well, unless I end up on my side or roof. :emb:

It's going to be similar to the OEM UCP, but more protective. I'm hoping it'll look a lot better when I'm done, especially after it's painted. But I'm more concerned about making it strong.
 

JPaul

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,400
Location
Way up north, UT
Thanks! Hopefully by the time I get done with this I'll be good enough to have my roof rack turn out nice looking. Honestly, I can lay down a butt joint bead pretty well already, and I think part of the reason the welds for the rectangular tube to the plate are so rough is that it's not just a plain 90 degree joint, the rectangular tube has a fair bit of radius to it, so I have to try and get the weld puddle down inside the corner more than if it were a sharp 90 degree joint. I'm wondering if I should kind of "fill in" that radius portion, and then go back and finish tying the tube to the plate over that.
 

JPaul

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,400
Location
Way up north, UT
Got some more work done last night on the UCP. I mounted it back on the H3 first to scribe where the last bracket was supposed to go. Previously all I had scribed was the side to side alignment, I totally forgot to scribe how far back it was supposed to be. Turned out to be a good thing because I totally goofed on the middle bracket and had put it on the wrong side of the scribe line for fore/aft alignment and it was completely missing the crossmember. Ground off the tack welds and re-tacked it back in the correct position.

This is as far as I got last night:

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The other set of bars are just sitting there, I wanted to get a better idea of how it would look. Of course that is when I started realizing some of the mistakes I had made. Yay for not actually designing the whole thing first and instead just going with it. Basically it's probably going to look really ugly when it's done, but I think it should still be completely functional. Here's one of the biggest issues I have right now:

FonTlKq.jpg


As you can see, the one bar goes right over where the bolt hole is. Oh, and that bolt hole, even though it's one that I used to mount the UCP while test fitting it last night, is now slightly in the wrong place as well and needs to be elongated where the sharpie is marking. Anyway, I have some ideas for getting around this, one of which is to basically notch the bar right there to create a recessed area and simply bolt through the bar.

But hey, my welds are getting better, at times...

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I really hope this will turn out half as well as I have it in my head, but I am very glad this will live under the H3 where it generally won't be seen.
 

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Texatl

Well-Known Member
Messages
109
Location
SW Ohio
Very cool. I haven't welded in a very very very long time (learned in auto shop in high school). So I am jealous and would love to do a project like that. Of course, I'd also have to have the time, equipment, skills, etc... Bravo for you taking on something new and learning as you go. I'm no welder and I think they look pretty good.
 

JPaul

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,400
Location
Way up north, UT
I ordered and received a couple 9.5 ton 7/8" shackles. They dropped down to just over $15 each, so I couldn't pass that up.


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Now I have a pair of 6.5 ton and a pair of 9.5 ton 7/8" shackles. I still want to get the 7 ton 3/4" shackles, but they are still $38 or so, which is more than I'd like to spend, given how little I've had to spend on shackles so far. Like I told my boss, I'm not screwing around with this stuff. I want the "weakest link" of any recovery setup to be the least dangerous piece, which right now is probably my recovery points. My winch is 12,000 pounds (with a 14,500 pound cable), my tree strap 40,000 pounds, my weakest shackle has a WLL of 13,000 pounds (with a breaking strength 5 times that), and my tow/recovery strap is 30,000 pounds. Pretty sure with a vehicle that will weigh at most 7,000 pounds overloaded, I have plenty of safety buffer with all of these (except the winch cable, but there isn't a lot you can do about that, short of getting a 15,000 pound winch with thicker cable). Sure, there's a lot more to it than that, but at least I'm not worrying about some made in China shackle that may or may not safely handle the loads put on it. Plus this stuff was all dirt cheap, which is the best part. :woot:
 

SuperBuickGuy

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,403
Location
Woodinville, WA
are you sure your cable is only 14,500 limit? most cable are at least twice the rated capacity of the winch because one snatch block and you'd be well-beyond its rated capacity. Both of my 9k winches have rope on them rated at 19,500 lbs. I suspect that your cable is at least 24,500 capacity... if not, there's your weakest link, and replace it with synthetic rope and take that killer out of the equation.
 

JPaul

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,400
Location
Way up north, UT
are you sure your cable is only 14,500 limit? most cable are at least twice the rated capacity of the winch because one snatch block and you'd be well-beyond its rated capacity. Both of my 9k winches have rope on them rated at 19,500 lbs. I suspect that your cable is at least 24,500 capacity... if not, there's your weakest link, and replace it with synthetic rope and take that killer out of the equation.

I don't think so, I just checked the manual for the winch and it says the nominal strength is 16,800 pounds (0.375" (3/8" roughly) 7x19 galvanized steel), which I am assuming is the breaking strength, and Warn's charts have the same size wire rope at 14,400 for the minimum breaking strength. Warn lists their 7/16" wire rope at just 20,400 pounds minimum breaking strength which still isn't twice my winch's rating. And Warn generally includes just 3/8" wire rope on their 12,000 pound winches. I think they figure it's a trade off between flexibility and weight vs breaking strength, you're getting just barely enough strength to be over the winch's rated capacity, however that breaking strength quickly diminishes as it is worn and damaged. This is probably the real reason winch lines break so often, they are barely rated for the job when new as it is. I doubt you see the frequency of winch failures in the professional rigging/winching industry. But then, their winches and ropes cost a heck of a lot more, and weigh a good amount more as well. It's all trade offs.

Honestly, self recovery winches are the absolute weakest link of recovery rigging for offroading, the rope is usually just barely over the rating of the winch, and the hooks aren't much better if at all (which is why I personally feel it's safer to use a properly rated shackle instead of the hook they give you, a 3/8" grade 70 hook has a WLL of just over 3 tons, far less than any winch we use), and the line pull of the winch is only useful for about ten feet or so, which depending on your situation is probably enough, but sometimes not and you have to re-rig. Only by not pushing it to the max can you really safely use a winch. You really should not push anything past it's working load limit, yet when it comes to winches, that is exactly what we do with every single part, including the deadly parts.

A double line pull is only "safe" with the rope you have on your winch because each line is only pulling about half of the load. I'm not sure about the physics at the point where it wraps around the pulley, but I'd imagine the load is technically spread out over some distance and that helps keep it under the breaking strength. The pulley itself however certainly needs to be rated at more than double the winch capacity, as does everything else attached to the pulley. So does your winch mounting points, since even though the winch itself is only being stressed to it's rating, usually the point you hook on to back on the vehicle after wrapping the cable around the pulley is the same location your winch is mounted to. It's entirely possible to rip the winch off the vehicle if your attachment points on your vehicle are not strong enough.

It all comes down to understanding the forces at work and where they are at work, and the limits of all the pieces involved.

I could go with synthetic, but then I'd only be bumping up the breaking strength to a bit over 21,000 pounds, which still isn't that great of a buffer, but it is better. I just don't know enough about synthetic to decide if I really want to bother with it or not. Not keen on replacing a rope every year or two, especially if I never use it. I need to just see how much I end up going offroading and how extreme I get with it. I'm not really planning on anything severe any time soon, especially since this is my daily driver. We'll see though.
 

JPaul

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,400
Location
Way up north, UT
So I made some good-ish progress on the UCP, as it actually looks like UCP now. I've mainly got it all tacked into place and still need to finish up the welds, and take care of that one mounting hole on the front. But it's closer.

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I watched some videos and read some guides on flux core wire welding and was able to do a much better job on my welds tonight. Still need improvement, but I am starting to get it figured out. As you can see in that last pic though, I have given myself a very real challenge. I have no idea how I am going to weld inside that narrow gap between those two bars. I tried, but it ended up just balling up on the bar and doesn't zip on the plate for some reason. If anyone has any suggestions or tips to help me with my welding I'd greatly appreciate them.

Anyway, it is turning out pretty beefy, yet relatively light. As of right now I am estimating this will only end up weighing about 60 pounds or so, but maybe a bit more. The bars are 1"x1.5" 1/8" tube, the plates and angle iron are 1/8", and the bars are spaced about 3" apart from each other. So it should hold up pretty well, especially compared to the OEM UCP which in comparison seems to barely do anything.

I still need to add some cross bars to help stiffen the whole thing up, and finish the welds, and take care of that hole in the front that I have covered. Hopefully I can get it done before my trip still, but I did end up having to order a thermostat and temperature sender as I ran into the wonderful "AC OFF" message yesterday, and intermittently my temperature seems to be a bit too low (like 1/4 up is all). So that needs to take precedence, they should be here Thursday.
 

SuperBuickGuy

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,403
Location
Woodinville, WA
my issue with cable is the stored energy that, if it breaks, can kill you. A synthetic rope simply drops to the ground. Best of all, if it does break, one square knot and you're back in business.

Every pulley (snatch block) doubles the force applied, so your pinch points can have that doubled forced applied to it - whether the force over distance helps with stress, I'm not an engineer, I'm just the bloke who's seen people cut in half with a cable.
 

JPaul

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,400
Location
Way up north, UT
Finished up the UCP enough to get it mounted for the weekend trip. Took an awful lot longer than I was hoping/planning for (what else is new? :roll: ) But, it's on, and there is only a little bit of work left to do on it to completely finish it. But that will wait until next weekend or sometime.


Doesn't it look so pretty?

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JPaul

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,400
Location
Way up north, UT
I had to make cutouts in the diff skid plate to clear the bars. It's only attached with one bolt at the back of the diff skid since I had to cut out the other mounting point. I think what I will end up doing is building a new diff skid plate. The stock one really isn't all that strong looking to me, though I'm sure it'll hold up enough to protect the diff from that first hit. After that though...

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Lots of clearance for the transfer case. I actually had to cut off the cross bar closes to the middle crossmember thanks to my not being able to measure correctly, initially it was way, way too close and I was very concerned it was going to hit the transfer case. I moved it forward another inch so it's plenty good now.

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The rear part I'm kinda "meh" about. I'd really like to notch and angle up those bits, but the one closes to the gas tank I probably won't be able to, it's already within an inch of the corner of the gas tank skid. Plus, those bits are in line with the drive shaft/rear pumpkin, so technically anything that could get stuck on those when backing up would have already hit the pumpkin (which is much lower than those are) so I'll probably just leave them alone.

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JPaul

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,400
Location
Way up north, UT
So aside from the one cross bar being too close to the transfer case, this is another issue I ran into. Apparently whilst welding up everything, I warped the UCP down, so at the middle crossmember there was probably an inch and a quarter of space between it and the mounting plate for the UCP. I vainly put a jack under it to see if it'd bend up at all. I can tell you this, I have built a very, very beefy UCP. I ended up lifting the entire H3 up and and the UCP barely deflected at all. This was with the jack right in the middle with a 1" plus gap between the UCP and the frame. So, yeah, I don't think I have to worry about this holding up to any abuse.

So to solve this problem, I ended up cutting all of the bars at the middle mounting plate so that I could bend the entire UCP to get the mounting plate to meet the middle crossmember. Not my finest hour by far (especially considering I had to cut it a second time after bending it too far, but we won't talk about that...) but it ended up working and then I only had maybe a 1/8" or so gap, much easier to manage.

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Scarsman

Sponsor
Messages
1,561
Location
Monroe, WA
Nice first welding project! It can be tricky learning to work with heat warping.

Keep in mind that flux core welding with those small welders is just plain ugly and messy. You might want to pick up a gas bottle and switch to solid wire. Also, keep in mind that 1/8" is about the max for that Hobart 140.
 

JPaul

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,400
Location
Way up north, UT
Thanks! I was able to get my welds decent after a while, but yeah, I can see how flux core is just kind of a pain really, especially with inside corner welds. I can get my butt and lap welds to look pretty decent, it's the inside corners that are a real pain.

I was able to give it a little bit of a work out this weekend, we went rock hounding around Topaz Mountain in Utah with my wife's parents. One of the trails we took get pretty interesting toward the end, though nothing scary. I did bang my undercarriage several times on rocks, it was so nice knowing that it wasn't the sound of $1500+ going "poof." My wife actually enjoyed herself as well, so we'll probably go on more trails like that together. She commented a couple times when I hit something that she was glad knowing it was just the skids and not anything expensive.

I might take them off this weekend to clean up and paint, or I might wait a bit longer, I've got a bunch of weekends coming up full of stuff already (another camping trip, Salt Lake Comic Con, and a trip to NH) so it might just have to wait a while to get finished up. We'll see. I need to recover from this last week and a half first.
 

Cowboy

Well-Known Member
Messages
87
Location
Alameda
Nice thread. Great job explaining your first fabrication job. I like that we can share our first F U's, I mean, lessons. Really good job.
I had all sorts of suggestions and then thought, that's frickin awesome. What's your next project? Full XO cage to justify that new tube bender?


Can't make it through the day? Back up, and get a run at it!
 
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